Spiral Dynamics and criticising different groups of people

[Guest gilded_honour]

Regarding Spiral dynamics: by cryticising feminists, panks, green activists, prostitutes and so on..... you won't get passed them, won't get developed further to the next stage of Spiral dynamics -- this was said in the videos, roughly.

 

Does this mean that those groups of people -- feminists, panks, green activists, prostitutes and so on ....-- are more progressive than those who criticise them?

 

For instance, if I criticise feminists, does this mean that I haven't yet reached their level of development in the scale of Spiral dynamics? Or not neccessarily?

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by gilded_honour

[Key Elements]

Good questions. I would say, if you criticize someone, the chances are they would not listen, and that creates distance. Even if you label someone belonging to a certain group and question about that, they may feel uncomfortable. It doesn't allow the person(s) to be themselves and be authentic. It could lead to unwanted disagreements and debates. The question is, why participate in that? Ask yourself, is that the real work that you 'should' be doing? What is most fulfilling in life?

This is something for me to think about too. Let's say when you meet a new person, what do you talk about? What if they start an uncomfortable topic? What would you say to drop the topic without sounding rude?

[Wyze]

Quote

For instance, if I criticise feminists, does this mean that I haven't yet reached their level of development in the scale of Spiral dynamics? Or not neccessarily?

It isn't the act of criticism that is "wrong"; it is the need to criticize that is an indication of your shadow presence. This isn't about progressiveness; because all behaviour will have a good and bad root. Take eating for example; eating gives you nutrition; but eating too much can result in unhealthy outcomes. If you criticism eating then it just shows a lack of integrated understanding of both sides of the behaviour.

So there are good and bad outcomes to feminism, activism and prostitution etc - your personal development is for you to find a healthy balanced understanding to both sides of the behaviour.

When you criticism something or someone, it shows an egocentric aspect of your personality - because essentially your saying; "what I know is better and more important than what you know; therefore I judge your behaviour as inferior"

All levels of the spiral have their own version of that.

[Forestluv]

I would focus more on principles rather than personalities. For example, someone who can only see in terms of objective morality would be at a lower level than someone who understands and has embodied moral relativism. Can a moral relativist behave like a jackass? . . . You betcha. 

So it depends on why you are criticizing the feminist. Are you criticizing them because they screamed at you, spit in your face and kicked you in the balls? Or are you criticizing them for the underlying principles, such as gender equality?

[Equanimitize]

4 hours ago, gilded_honour said:

For instance, if I criticise feminists, does this mean that I haven't yet reached their level of development in the scale of Spiral dynamics? Or not neccessarily?

Yes, if you in fact can't see what is going on there (helicopter view) then you would arguably be lower on the Spiral. A lot of feminist, green activist, etc. are stuck in the unhealthy manifestations of stage green-they are shadow boxing. If someone criticizes an irrational feminist and gets triggered by them, then I would say theres a good chance they haven't fully integrated stage green. If you criticize, but yet are detached and a sense of empathy arises from your consciousness then I would say you are at our above stage green.

[Guest gilded_honour]

13 hours ago, Key Elements said:

Good questions. I would say, if you criticize someone, the chances are they would not listen, and that creates distance. Even if you label someone belonging to a certain group and question about that, they may feel uncomfortable. It doesn't allow the person(s) to be themselves and be authentic. It could lead to unwanted disagreements and debates. The question is, why participate in that? Ask yourself, is that the real work that you 'should' be doing? What is most fulfilling in life?

This is something for me to think about too. Let's say when you meet a new person, what do you talk about? What if they start an uncomfortable topic? What would you say to drop the topic without sounding rude?

my question isn't about that.

[Guest gilded_honour]

10 hours ago, Wyze said:

It isn't the act of criticism that is "wrong"; it is the need to criticize that is an indication of your shadow presence. This isn't about progressiveness; because all behaviour will have a good and bad root. Take eating for example; eating gives you nutrition; but eating too much can result in unhealthy outcomes. If you criticism eating then it just shows a lack of integrated understanding of both sides of the behaviour.

So there are good and bad outcomes to feminism, activism and prostitution etc - your personal development is for you to find a healthy balanced understanding to both sides of the behaviour.

When you criticism something or someone, it shows an egocentric aspect of your personality - because essentially your saying; "what I know is better and more important than what you know; therefore I judge your behaviour as inferior"

All levels of the spiral have their own version of that.

No nooooo

My question isn't whether it's good or bad, one should do it or not.

But how is it classified according to Spiral Dynamics

[Guest gilded_honour]

9 hours ago, Equanimitize said:

Yes, if you in fact can't see what is going on there (helicopter view) then you would arguably be lower on the Spiral. A lot of feminist, green activist, etc. are stuck in the unhealthy manifestations of stage green-they are shadow boxing. If someone criticizes an irrational feminist and gets triggered by them, then I would say theres a good chance they haven't fully integrated stage green. If you criticize, but yet are detached and a sense of empathy arises from your consciousness then I would say you are at our above stage green.

This is it.

Are feminists, for instance, really in the stage Green?

[Equanimitize]

1 hour ago, gilded_honour said:

Are feminists, for instance, really in the stage Green?

Good question, maybe this is what you originally asked I just didn’t grasp it. 

I suppose it all depends on how each feminist sees the world. I suppose that you can be a feminist and still be at stage Red, Blue, or Orange. There’s plenty of stage Orange feminist out there.

The overall collective drive to give women equality and self-empowerment is defnitely a stage green movement. Whether or not the individual follows strictly stage green worldviews is subjective upon that individual. 

[Key Elements]

4 hours ago, gilded_honour said:

my question isn't about that.

You asked a bunch of questions with the answer already. To me, the answer is yes, they are more progressive if you start engaging in questions & debates with them. It doesn't change ppl for whatever they stand for.

[Shadowraix]

Use spiral dynamics to understand and improve. You can do what you want but criticizing everything you see probably won't do you good. 

If you want to engage in such discussions then try focusing the goal of the discussion for you. I find a much more healthy approach is focus on spreading information instead of changing minds. Give them your knowledge then just accept their acceptance or denial of it. They now know your perspective and if they do grow as a person it will be a vital growing tool. Encourage them to question what you say because it means they are thinking about it. This is essentially how I nudge people in the right direction. They tend to be more receptive when I am not directly attacking their views they clutch to. Plant the seed and let them cultivate it. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Shadowraix

[Michael Sneg]

Spiral Dynamics is a model, that has it’s own limitations. You cannot tell someone’s stage only on basis of political belief or job or whatever. You cannot even tell your own stage precisely. Feminist can be any stage from red to turquoise. Being hippie does not make you green automatically.

Being critical of these people does not make you below them, but it can hint you what stage you are on, at least partially.

If you critisize feminists because they are useless and should get a real job, chances are you are orange. If you think green activists are causing more harm than good because it’s impractical and there are better ways to achieve their goals, maybe you are yellow.

 

Other thing is, don’t be afraid to critisize things, but do it open-mindedly and with a possibility of being wrong. Quickest way to get rid of stupid beliefs is to say them loudly, although you may get embarrassed or humbled.

[Leo Gura]

@gilded_honour The bottom line is all criticism is delusion, coming from ego.

In a high state of consciousness you will not be criticizing anyone. In the same way that you will not be doing violence in a state of high consciousness.

This does not mean people aren't being dangerous fools. There are plenty of dangerous fools in the world. But criticizing fools is itself a delusion because fools cannot help being fools. The more proper attitude is to have compassion and understanding of their state of ignorance.

[now is forever]

@gilded_honour but ultimately if you want to go further into criticism and dissolve it you can ask yourself: if i criticise them who are they criticizing? if i want to be the critique of a critique then at least i need to understand where it comes from. you‘ll see it gets kind of messy if you‘ll do that.

especially with punks and feminists you have to roll up quite a bit of history there.

Edited December 1, 2018 by now is forever

[Emerald]

22 hours ago, gilded_honour said:

Regarding Spiral dynamics: by cryticising feminists, panks, green activists, prostitutes and so on..... you won't get passed them, won't get developed further to the next stage of Spiral dynamics -- this was said in the videos, roughly.

Does this mean that those groups of people -- feminists, panks, green activists, prostitutes and so on ....-- are more progressive than those who criticise them?

For instance, if I criticise feminists, does this mean that I haven't yet reached their level of development in the scale of Spiral dynamics? Or not neccessarily?

From what I've found so far, most likely that's the case. A person who is genuinely in Yellow might critique certain methods and motivations that a group may have and question the efficacy they have toward creating a more harmonious society. But they will also recognize that Green's vision for the future (fairness/equality, green energy, acceptance, etc.) tends to be a lot more positive than the status quo, even if there are logistical problems with their methods. 

But an Orange person would likely demonize these groups and try to justify that these groups as lesser to maintain homeostasis in their Orange identity and worldview. And if they are aware of the Spiral Dynamics model, they'll want to recast those groups as Purple, Red, or Blue, as opposed to Green.

This is a common Blue/Orange response to Green, to do mental gymnastics to convince themselves that a group is lower on the spiral than they are.

Or another tactic is to convince themselves that they're already in Yellow as someone in Orange, to justify their superior position on the spiral.

They may also label themselves as Green because they can look at their Orange/Blue perspectives and convince themselves it's Green. For example, someone who is an MRA, can think of MRA as a Green movement because of the supposed questioning of the status quo and a fight for equality of men. But the viewpoints of that group tend to be a mix of Red/Blue/Orange, and it's a group that largely works to maintain the Orange status quo in society to resist against Green.

These are the most common tactics I've seen, with the first being the most widely used.

You can see it a lot on forum particularly with people who are in resistance to Feminism which is largely a Green movement, and classifying Feminists as primarily a Red/Blue movement, because it would rub their ego the wrong way and undermine their worldview to see them as higher up on the spiral than them. And they have lots of propaganda of "Feminists Rekt by Logic" videos, where they have the least charitable representation of that group that's easy to demonize to help convince themselves of this. 

[Wyze]

11 hours ago, gilded_honour said:

No nooooo

My question isn't whether it's good or bad, one should do it or not.

But how is it classified according to Spiral Dynamics

Sorry must have misread your question. Did you mean criticism or debate?

Generally a debate is an intellectual engagement about a common topic which does not result in emotional insult. healthy Green can debate with healthy Green, And healthy Yellow can debate with healthy Green. Whether the message goes to Green, depends on the Green.

Any form of criticism is a indication of lower level. I am assuming criticism as an emotional put down.

[Joseph Maynor]

There's a paradox here.  On the one hand it's irrelevant to compare yourself to anybody.  But on the other hand, it's good to compare yourself to other people who have attained something that you might want for yourself.  And that includes higher-consciousness and Enlightenment.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[tsuki]

On 30.11.2018 at 11:28 PM, gilded_honour said:

Does this mean that those groups of people -- feminists, panks, green activists, prostitutes and so on ....-- are more progressive than those who criticise them?

Not necessarily.
When it comes to judging other people with regards to their spiral dynamics stage, what I find the most useful is this framework:

1. If you think that the other person is just alien to you, their logic is downright offensive and they seem like they can't even think properly - this means that they can be higher on the spiral, or integrate something that you have as a shadow.
2. If you have been like the other person in the past, you have followed their values and you transcended them to arrive here, then that means that they can be lower on the spiral.

The person (1) has to be in a certain sense respectable by external circumstances, like -have a 'good life' otherwise. It does not mean that you should treat every lunatic on the street as coral. It is always beneficial, however, to listen to that person and try to squeeze your frame of mind into their perspective to gain some intellectual flexibility. Even if you do not agree with them (yet).

The person (2) is never thought of as just stupid, or a moron. There is always a kind of sentiment to that kind of thinking and understanding of these people is compassionate. It's more like observing a child that has to learn their lessons and not an enemy to be conquered. It is also usually obvious, that the person cannot be talked out of their naivety by presenting arguments.

From my point of view, the only valid reason to criticize somebody is to lay down your objections to their perspective in order to understand why you resist them. You can't change other people by talking them out of their nonsense. They have to experience their nonsense first-hand and suffer through it mindfully. Instead of changing them, you should focus on your own suffering and transcend it.