What's this gender argument about?

[thehero]

i think the argument that there being many genders is separate from biological gender

biological gender is black and white, male or female

but when youre talking about personality traits, what makes a man a man if u couldnt tell his sex?

if he has more feminine traits than masculine, then i guess he would be leaning more towards female.

im guessing thats what they mean by unlimited genders

[Forestluv]

Gender and sexuality is evolving fast. I think there are genders emerging outside of the masculine - feminine continuum 

[thehero]

@Serotoninluv did you ever watch those youtube videos with ben shapiro type people? they are arguing against these transgender people that there is no such thing as male or female because science says that there is only male and female. are they simply not contemplating the idea?

Edited September 27, 2018 by thehero

[Shadowraix]

Biological sex indeed is roughly black and white but you do have intersex which is just an all encompassing term for biological variation regarding sex.

Although people don't like to acknowledge the inherent dynamic nature of life and shrug it off as a minority.

Yes gender in this case is often used for how you express yourself. We as a culture has set features that make us more masculine or feminine. And you can slide along the spectrum between these.

As far as I know gender has been considered an expression component of biological sex. I can understand feeling neither feminine or masculine but in terms of having genders outside of that spectrum we must define whether gender has some sort of correlation with biological sex or if its completely untethered.

 

[Forestluv]

22 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

 I can understand feeling neither feminine or masculine but in terms of having genders outside of that spectrum we must define whether gender has some sort of correlation with biological sex or if its completely untethered.

Says who? The emergence of genders is not restricted within previous human constructs of gender. 

Old models of gender do not get to set rules that restrict the parameters of new emerging models of gender.

Horse carraige drivers did not get to set the rules on how emerging automobiles would be manufactured. 

 

[Emerald]

Gender is about identity, and as such is inherently contrived. You can decide that you're a man, woman, or somewhere in the middle, or neither, because all identity (including gender identity) is inherently false, as it is an ego construct. 

So, if there are trans/genderqueer people who say that man and woman is a construct, they are correct. When there are people who say that the multitude of genders is made up, they are also correct. All identity is a contrivance. But because all identity is inherently contrived, it's in a person's best interest to choose whichever one they feel most comfortable with and whichever one serves as the best and widest lens for their Yin/Yang signature to be expressed. The identity is the lens for the more subtle aspects of our nature. It's how nature and nurture work together to create an outward expression.

So, if someone assigned male at birth, genuinely has a lot of Yin energy, they may feel like the identity of "woman" is a better lens for which to express their natural energy. To identify with maleness, would be an innapropriate lens as it would block their most basic essence from being expressed fully. Or if someone feels like neither male nor female are good lenses for their most basic nature, they may consider themselves genderfluid or genderqueer. Knowing these words as concepts can help people navigate their relationship to the gender spectrum.

The reason why all these delineations of gender exist, is because some people have a genuinely complex relationship to gender and their place on the gender spectrum. So, they invent new terms for better understanding. 

It's kind of like how in Florida, there is like three words for snow that we might use, as we don't really deal with snow that often... in fact we never do. But in Eskimo language, there are like 30 different words that mean snow with like slight variations on the meaning. This is because Eskimos have a much more complex relationship to snow than Floridians like myself. 

For someone who feels comfortable with the gender identity that matches with their biological sex, it may seem silly to make up these identities. We take so much for granted that gender isn't a part of identity and think of it as just a fact of who we are. We don't really have to think about it because the default works for us. But for some, the default doesn't work, and I think if these different gender delineations help them know and express themselves better, then I can't see it as anything else than a positive thing. 

Identity is important to people. People want to identify certain ways that make them feel happier and more fulfilled. Gender identity as an extension of that is a very important aspect of identity. 

[Forestluv]

@Emerald Thank you. It is sooo refreshing to read a highly conscious explanation of gender. Do you have a video appropriate for people transitioning upward into this level of understanding for gender?

[Forestluv]

19 hours ago, thehero said:

@Serotoninluv did you ever watch those youtube videos with ben shapiro type people? they are arguing against these transgender people that there is no such thing as male or female because science says that there is only male and female. are they simply not contemplating the idea?

Yes. I think he is locked into logical / scientific thinking and does not understand relativism. My favorite clip was a woman born with a penis, yet identifies more feminine and female. Ben spouted off studies about hormones and brain scans indicating that she is physiologically experiencing maleness. She responds "That's not my reality". Ben is like "yes, it is". . . Face palm.

[eleveneleven]

21 hours ago, thehero said:

biological gender is black and white, male or female

No it isn't. What about intersex people who are born with ambiguous genitalia? What about women who are born with vaginas, but have XY sex chromosomes? What about transgender people, where the sex of their brain is opposite from the sex of their reproductive organs? What about organisms besides humans, which may have more than two genders?

Gender is black and white for most people in a social sense, in the way they see themselves and make an abstraction out of their bodies. In terms of the actual nature part of it, it absolutely is not--just like everything else, the separation is a human invention.

As far as having a long list of alternate genders, though, I think that's kind of silly. It's just semantics, really. But I understand from the perspective of people who are trying to draw attention to the fact that it's not so black and white. Maybe some people need new language to describe themselves. This doesn't mean that new genders just popped out of nowhere, though. There weren't necessarily any to begin with.

Quote

Yes. I think he is locked into logical / scientific thinking and does not understand relativism. My favorite clip was a woman born with a penis, yet identifies more feminine and female. Ben spouted off studies about hormones and brain scans indicating that she is physiologically experiencing maleness. She responds "That's not my reality". Ben is like "yes, it is". . . Face palm.

Yeah. Such a person would also be cherry-picking their information to serve an agenda, I would say. There are plenty of studies to the contrary that indicate similarities between the brains of trans women (born with penis) and females born with normal female reproductive organs. The physical, biological side of being transgender is now starting to be understood; these people aren't making it up just to play dress-up.

And even if there wasn't some physical "proof" of this condition, I still don't see why people are invested in it one way or another. Let people call themselves whatever they want. It's just an avatar anyway.

Edited September 28, 2018 by eleveneleven

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Emerald Thank you. It is sooo refreshing to read a highly conscious explanation of gender. Do you have a video appropriate for people transitioning upward into this level of understanding for gender?

Thank you.

I haven't done one talking too much about contemporary topics relative to gender, as I feel like it's too close to the political debates of today to yield good results. The core of what I'm saying would be missed, and it would devolve into a political debate. So, because my channel is about consciousness work, it would be a distraction and may even cause an aversion in some people who would otherwise be interested in consciousness work, to add in an extensive amount of information about controversial topics in the political arena. The way I see it is that if I'm able to succeed in making people more conscious and empathetic, that they will naturally realize the reason behind the multiple genders idea and will be able to understand the value it provides to some people.

But I have quite a few videos about Yin and Yang, the Feminine Principle and the Masculine Principle, the Divine Feminine, the Anima and Animus, and other related topics. These will give quite a lot of information on the topic, which should illuminate a lot of things about how gender works in the first place psychologically, energetically, and socially. And from there, it can be extrapolated why there are common patterns in gender expression as well as exceptions to those patterns. 

[Shadowraix]

On 9/27/2018 at 2:27 AM, Serotoninluv said:

Says who? The emergence of genders is not restricted within previous human constructs of gender. 

Old models of gender do not get to set rules that restrict the parameters of new emerging models of gender.

Horse carraige drivers did not get to set the rules on how emerging automobiles would be manufactured. 

 

I meant in terms of society as a whole.

If people don't want to break this tether they'll never get rid of such a narrow construct.

If they do, then you can acknowledge unlimited genders. I think with this people fear language getting too complex.

[Hansu]

Term gender in animal world means what kind of reproductive organs an animal has. Three I know so far, male, female and hermaphrodite.

Why in the human world there is an attempt to push through the idea that the term "gender" means reproductive organs combined with personality?

Talking about terms like "genderfluid" as genders just go against the grain of human individuals who view gender in the black and white. Isn't anyone seeing how fucked up it is that for years we have had two set of people debating on this question, but neither side even tries to understands what the other side means with the term "gender"?

This whole mess could be solved with something like the following:

Gender: Male/Female/Transgender
Gendertype: Male/Female/Transsexual/CISgender(ALIAS=soyboy)/Genderfluid/whateveryouidentifyas

If not, why not?

Edited September 29, 2018 by Hansu

[Spiral]

Sex and gender, two different things.

[Hansu]

19 minutes ago, Spiral said:

Sex and gender, two different things.

And the same for so many.

Im not saying that this is how I feel, but in my observation the problem with multiple genders in the "anti-multiple gender" group of people always boil down to sexual organs.

In my opinion its fools errand to try and mainstream the 50 or so new terms as "genders" if so many people recognize gender as a set of sexual organs. Much less foolish would be to create a new term number 51 that would classify the new terms into one group such as the previously mentioned "gendertype" so this battle of terms could finally have a conclusion and we could focus more on important things, like what flavored chips we can create next

[outlandish]

Aside from what everyone has mentioned in here, there is a huge elephant lurking in the room that is just starting to be talked about.

Another big part of the story, in my opinion, is the fact that we're all ingesting huge quantities of hormone disruptors *all the time*. Pesticides, flame retardants, plastics and other polymers (it's not just BPA), and all kinds of other synthetic chemicals that we're packaging our food in, wearing, drinking out of etc. Even if you eat pure organic, it's not really escapable. We're using ABS and PVC piping to plumb our houses, nearly every food item comes packaged in plastic, there are flame retardants all around.

It's hard to know to what extent there compounds are affecting us, but there are dozens or hundreds of synthetic estrogen mimicking compounds in our bodies that come from our human made environment. Some of these end up blocking estrogen, some end up stimulating those pathways.. it's all very complicated and difficult to determine exactly whats going on. In my opinion, in 10 years we'll be freaking out a lot more about this issue.

Anyways, regardless of the cause of so many people coming out as transgender these days, its really important and beautiful to accept people for who they are. It's very heartwarming to see that people are becoming comfortable to express themselves how they choose.

 

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, Hansu said:

And the same for so many.

Im not saying that this is how I feel, but in my observation the problem with multiple genders in the "anti-multiple gender" group of people always boil down to sexual organs.

In my opinion its fools errand to try and mainstream the 50 or so new terms as "genders" if so many people recognize gender as a set of sexual organs. Much less foolish would be to create a new term number 51 that would classify the new terms into one group such as the previously mentioned "gendertype" so this battle of terms could finally have a conclusion and we could focus more on important things, like what flavored chips we can create next

More-so the terms for all the gender delineations exist for the use of people that are in the gray areas, and not so much other people who aren't non-binary like you and me. In the non-binary communities, these terms actually mean something of substance to them and aide them in getting to know themselves better. So, to use a blanket term, would not serve this same purpose, as the value of the term lies in the specificity of the definition. 

But most people who are non-binary don't require that people address them with these identities or even really know a lot about them. They usually use they/them/their pronouns, which is how they mostly prefer to be addressed. And it's a safe bet to use these terms for trans-people as well. I guess there might be some people who get fancy and prefer that people use some really uncommon pronouns like xir, xim, or all those other ones. But I've never met or seen anyone who preferred those to they/them/their which are a lot closer to common uses of the English language. 

[Shadowraix]

8 minutes ago, Emerald said:

More-so the terms for all the gender delineations exist for the use of people that are in the gray areas, and not so much other people who aren't non-binary like you and me. In the non-binary communities, these terms actually mean something of substance to them and aide them in getting to know themselves better. So, to use a blanket term, would not serve this same purpose, as the value of the term lies in the specificity of the definition. 

But most people who are non-binary don't require that people address them with these identities or even really know a lot about them. They usually use they/them/their pronouns, which is how they mostly prefer to be addressed. And it's a safe bet to use these terms for trans-people as well. I guess there might be some people who get fancy and prefer that people use some really uncommon pronouns like xir, xim, or all those other ones. But I've never met or seen anyone who preferred those to they/them/their which are a lot closer to common uses of the English language. 

You know, I have always found it very weird that our language is very gender based. When I took my German course in high school I was baffled that inanimate objects had a gender assigned to them as well which just served to increase the language complexity. I remember talking to a friend who had met/researched some tribe that used living/nonliving in place of gender which at least to me makes more sense.

Is it possible these people are so heavily caught up in gender and such references as identity on the sole idea our society and especially language is so caught up in differentiating people by gender/sex down to how you talk to them? I wonder where we would be at if it wasn't so heavily gender based.

 

[Hansu]

11 hours ago, Emerald said:

In the non-binary communities, these terms actually mean something of substance to them and aide them in getting to know themselves better.

But most people who are non-binary don't require that people address them with these identities or even really know a lot about them.

Great answer! I suppose my view is narrow on the subject as its mostly based on twitterSJW ramblings, my own assumptions and anti-sjw filth I have been consuming on 4chan for years, and the only tomboy I know doesen't give two dimes on the whole gender thing

But I do see the value of different gender terms if they are used to help explain difficult questions or feelings to certain people

 

Thanks!

 

[Talinn]

On 9/27/2018 at 0:39 PM, Emerald said:

Gender is about identity, and as such is inherently contrived. You can decide that you're a man, woman, or somewhere in the middle, or neither, because all identity (including gender identity) is inherently false, as it is an ego construct. 

So, if there are trans/genderqueer people who say that man and woman is a construct, they are correct. When there are people who say that the multitude of genders is made up, they are also correct. All identity is a contrivance. But because all identity is inherently contrived, it's in a person's best interest to choose whichever one they feel most comfortable with and whichever one serves as the best and widest lens for their Yin/Yang signature to be expressed. The identity is the lens for the more subtle aspects of our nature. It's how nature and nurture work together to create an outward expression.

So, if someone assigned male at birth, genuinely has a lot of Yin energy, they may feel like the identity of "woman" is a better lens for which to express their natural energy. To identify with maleness, would be an innapropriate lens as it would block their most basic essence from being expressed fully. Or if someone feels like neither male nor female are good lenses for their most basic nature, they may consider themselves genderfluid or genderqueer. Knowing these words as concepts can help people navigate their relationship to the gender spectrum.

The reason why all these delineations of gender exist, is because some people have a genuinely complex relationship to gender and their place on the gender spectrum. So, they invent new terms for better understanding. 

It's kind of like how in Florida, there is like three words for snow that we might use, as we don't really deal with snow that often... in fact we never do. But in Eskimo language, there are like 30 different words that mean snow with like slight variations on the meaning. This is because Eskimos have a much more complex relationship to snow than Floridians like myself. 

For someone who feels comfortable with the gender identity that matches with their biological sex, it may seem silly to make up these identities. We take so much for granted that gender isn't a part of identity and think of it as just a fact of who we are. We don't really have to think about it because the default works for us. But for some, the default doesn't work, and I think if these different gender delineations help them know and express themselves better, then I can't see it as anything else than a positive thing. 

Identity is important to people. People want to identify certain ways that make them feel happier and more fulfilled. Gender identity as an extension of that is a very important aspect of identity. 

I really like this explanation too. I completely transitioned a couple of years ago and pretty much live as a stealth transgender person.

 

I've been avoiding looking deeper into the causes and effects of my being transgender but sooner or later I think I will have to do more shadow work regarding it. I mean I've had surgery and feel fine about it and everything, but I've been just so exhausted from all the ideology surrounding this topic (as well as the financial and temporal costs) that I think I only skimmed the surface of it. Basically really unfocused unclear attempts at self improvement that seem to have worked so far, but which I haven't explored in depth.

 

Is it even worth it though? If the self is an illusion in the first place? *sigh*.

[Emerald]

8 hours ago, Talinn said:

I really like this explanation too. I completely transitioned a couple of years ago and pretty much live as a stealth transgender person.

 

I've been avoiding looking deeper into the causes and effects of my being transgender but sooner or later I think I will have to do more shadow work regarding it. I mean I've had surgery and feel fine about it and everything, but I've been just so exhausted from all the ideology surrounding this topic (as well as the financial and temporal costs) that I think I only skimmed the surface of it. Basically really unfocused unclear attempts at self improvement that seem to have worked so far, but which I haven't explored in depth.

 

Is it even worth it though? If the self is an illusion in the first place? *sigh*.

The self is an illusion in the sense that it isn't a thing in itself. It's more of a collection of thought processes. 

But when it comes to Yin and Yang and the interplay between the two, these are aspects of reality that can be observed. They are phenomenologically real. So, don't let this discourage you from exploring what you're experiencing. It's just a different perspective that is still valid from its own platform. 

So, don't let non-dual beliefs get in the way of self-exploration.