Beliefs

[Monkey-man]

When you talk about beliefs you usually mean beliefs in concepts, ideas. That's not the first purpose of belief. The first purpose of belief isn't reasoning or thinking that something is true. It's about having state of being of strong confidence, trust, faith.

When all the skepticism and doubt exhausts itself through deconstruction, and they will, you'll realise you no longer know anything and you are not sure about anything about life and reality. You only left with believing or having faith in what is in front of you, and that 'what is' is or is governed by god which is word for 'that or that force which is beyond comprehension'. Or 'what is in front of you' is beyond  thinking. So doubts and reasons are left for mind things, where they belong, while truth is based on believing as a state of being.

After this your faith grows stronger and makes your monkey mind more and more silent, you let go things, you let life take its flow outsourcing all your problems and burdens to that force which cannot be comprehended. So you become free of everything because it's all god's will, it's not up to yourself. So eventually there's no more you as a separate human because nothing is up to you. See? You no longer resist and control your life but let yourself to be governed by that which cannot be comprehended. By being slave of god you realise great freedom and equanimity. Less mind and less judgement = more awareness of the pure presence. That's the same way how absolute manifests creation, through mere belief it does it. And you meet absolute through the same way. While all the techniques is there for you not to confuse 'believing in what is' as a state of being with 'believing in some ideas'. Ideas and concepts should be left for mind, that's mind's job to sort out ideas and concepts and 'know how to' through reasoning and doubting everything. While truth of being can be seen with strong faith, belief, trust, confidence. But you can't easily arrive there without first questioning life, so doubt is necessary, until it exhausts itself. That's why faith is irrational.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Monkey-man

[Vingger]

reality governed by god is a concept

[Patang]

@Monkey-man yes indeed, thank you (but please leave god outside the discussion). you see, all the imprints and beliefs are merely tools the mind is using for accepting reality as it seen, not asking questions about it or trying to understand the logic behind it. imprints and beliefs are a form of automated routines, saving the need to check reality every time anew. this is why, at the beginning of his life, a human being repeatedly asks the question why. that is how the human belief system is built.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Patang

[Leo Gura]

Usually when we say "belief" we mean a particular thing. You're using that word in an odd way. BEing is not belief. The present moment is not a belief. And states are not beliefs. 

Beliefs are conceptual positions one holds about reality. If you are fully in the NOW, your beliefs would be suspended. Although you will still have plenty of them in the back of your mind even after enlightenment.

Even the most enlightened masters hold false beliefs.

[Monkey-man]

@Leo Gura I mean believing in a sense of having faith and trust. You know like: 'I believe in myself' (not in idea about self, but that I have sense of faith and confidence and trust in this moment) or 'I believe that its alright and its God's will'

Having strong faith and trust is necessary, I think without it mind can't stop doubting present moment.

[Ether]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Usually when we say "belief" we mean a particular thing. You're using that word in an odd way. BEing is not belief. The present moment is not a belief. And states are not beliefs. 

Beliefs are conceptual positions one holds about reality. If you are fully in the NOW, your beliefs would be suspended. Although you will still have plenty of them in the back of your mind even after enlightenment.

Even the most enlightened masters hold false beliefs.

Yeah, i see sadguru saying: you are me and i am you. nah, we all just different and unique species. but that hasnt quite sink in yet

[tsuki]

It's difficult to say what we mean by "belief", as we usually don't even remember the last time we used that term.

Edited February 19, 2018 by tsuki

[SOUL]

Yes, faith, along with love bring the presence of being to awareness.

Edited February 19, 2018 by SOUL

[Nahm]

@Monkey-man Interesting. I was atheist and science minded for almost all of my life. The truth is not what I would have bet on / most of my thinking was wrong, maybe all of it. I think of faith a lot in the ways you mentioned.  I think it’s good- to believe in ourselves, to have faith. Life can be hard and a lot of people are just not going to directly experience the truth.  Ideally, there would be no beliefs, no need for a path. 

[Leo Gura]

53 minutes ago, Ether said:

Yeah, i see sadguru saying: you are me and i am you. nah, we all just different and unique species. but that hasnt quite sink in yet

That is not a belief. That is his direct nondual experience. For him, there is literally no difference between him and you. To you, there is.

Because separation is relative.

[Joseph Maynor]

Beliefs are thoughts taken to be true.  This is why Western Philosophers came up with the concept of propositions, although that is a kind of secondary belief.  The first statement that beliefs are thoughts taken to be true can point to real things in reality.  Notice when you perceive a belief.  It's always a thought taken to be true.  You can see that empirically.  Propositions are a secondary kind of theory that is intended to model certain aspects of a belief using another thought -- namely a proposition.

So, beliefs are not propositions and propositions are not beliefs.  Belief is a word, a vocalization, but it refers to things in reality, namely thought that is taken to be true.  Now, what does it mean to take something to be true -- well, again, that's a secondary sort of consideration.  You don't need any philosophy to understand that you have beliefs.  And you don't need to know what beliefs are to understand that you hold beliefs.

So, the safest way to define belief using language is as a pointer as follows -- beliefs are thoughts taken to be true.  Notice how I'm avoiding defining it as beliefs are thoughts taken to be true about reality.  That over-complicates it.  We don't need that part!  My intent in using the language is not to define beliefs, but to point out that they are real thoughts with a certain kind of feature; namely, that they're taken to be true, or held to be true in some manner in some context.  So, we use language pragmatically and don't confuse the words with the real phenomena that we're using the words to point to.  This is something I want to stress moving forward, this kind of pragmatic understanding of language and theories.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Nahm]

I’d like to watch the news one day, and it be delivered in truth, with regards to all that is happening which simply stems from beliefs. Maybe a daily death toll would help the global ‘wake up’ along a little faster, like, X number of people died today for the beliefs of someone they never even met. 

[dorg]

49 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

So, we use language pragmatically and don't confuse the words with the real phenomena that we're using the words to point to. 

Is there any real phenomena if not created by thought/word/idea believed in?

 

[Nahm]

@dorg Yes. OMG. Yes.  It would be noumena though, not trying to be semantical. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noumenon

[dorg]

@Nahm Thanks. I had a blank moment there

Edit: Not sure how long the blank moment was but I could not find anything to refer to anything.

Edited February 19, 2018 by dorg

[SOUL]

There's all sorts of beliefs up in here while suggesting 'no beliefs'....haha.

"be·lief

an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.

trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something."

 

[Monkey-man]

Hey hey guys belief as a thought is one thing. And they can always be misleading.

Believing in the present moment as a state of being is another. I was talking about second. The better term is faith and trust. Faith isn't rational or emotional, it's just state of being. Faith in yourself can be good first step but not enough coz it still makes you to impose personal will hence cultivates self-image and separateness. It's rather about having faith in this pure present moment, releasing mind games and hence letting go your self-image. And eventually here you stumble upon having life moving without having self, you come to conclusion that you are being governed by some force which cannot be Comprehended.

Having faith or trusting in that force which is beyond comprehension without having doubts about it, and giving up yourself and your life for that force will basically get rid of you as a separate entity with personal desires. That's enlightenment through monotheistic religions' methods like prayer, contemplation, and many many more. That's why all religions are about sacrificing your self.