How can "no self" and reincarnation not be a contradiction?

[MarkusSweden]

Because, what is reincarnated when there is no such thing as a self(ego)? 

Yet these two concepts of "no self" and "reincarnation" are compatible in many spiritual traditions and religions it seems. Buddhism for example. 

Probably a newbie question that's already discussed a number of times.

Sorry for that, but I'm curios.  

[molosku]

You are probably mistaking the ego being somehow woven into a physical entity. A physical being does not need an ego to be reincarnated. Why would it, as you know the whole thing is not a thing at all? 

An organism gets summoned into existance from the void, not a self. 

[Nahm]

@MarkusSweden There’s like 10,000 sects of Buddhism as well as Christianity. We could find some material to support just about anything we think of with either source. From my experience, there is just one being, so I supposed you could say it reincarnates, but I don’t see it that way, because the environment in which to reincarnate to is illusionary, and no being actually comes and goes / lives and dies. The being, be’s being’s, and everything the beings are experiencing, is actually the Being, appearing as other-than-the Being. If the being’s all realized they were all the one Being, I don’t think the concept of reincarnation would be around, as it usually implies individual souls and a false inherent purpose grounded in a hierarchy of spirit, but “each” is God already. And yet, at the same time, anything is possible, and there are mindfucks, so, who knows. 

[Leo Gura]

There could be a meta-self which persists across indvidual lifetimes. This meta-self might purposefully stay hidden during the present lifetime so as not to interfere with the lessons that this lifetime is supposed to teach.

Sorta like how you can go to a movie theater and watch several movies back to back. But each movie stands on its own as a self-consistent world. But you can still think about all 3 movies and draw lessons from all 3 of them combined in a sort of meta-analysis.

This meta-self could even be responsible for deciding which world/life it will inhabit next in order to gain the necessary lessons. For example, your meta-self might decide to become a crippled child or the next Hitler. So it could learn the joys and struggles of that.

Just a theory.

I suspect the universe might have a higher purpose of self-understanding which surpasses anything the human mind can conceive of. After all, if you were God, your #1 priority would probably be to understand yourself. But this is a tricky problem for God because God is infinite. So God is then in a sort of prepetual struggle of self-understanding.

I have become conscious of certain things which fit with that vein. For example, I've become conscious of why everything is happening as it is. Or why humans are as they are. But it is such a multi-parallel understanding that it cannot be articulated or even thought. I can't even think it to myself let alone explain it.

Imagine for example a mind which is 1 billion times more powerful than a human's, and what kinds of things it might understand. The possibilites are quite radical.

It helps if you start thinking of human understanding of the universe as ant-like.

[molosku]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

or the next Hitler.

He has been on your mind a lot lately, hasn't he? 

[Nahm]

On the topic of God knowing Self.... When someone says you are kind, or good looking, or loving, etc, it feels good. When someone says you are an asshole, you’re selfish, etc, it feels ‘bad’. Then of course, with more awareness, when someone says you are kind, or you are an asshole, because we know we are God, we can easily see ether remark is relative to the awareness of the person saying it, not the person hearing it.  What’s transpired is an experience of relativity of God to God, and not two people. Because we are God experiencing God directly, and the matter at hand is the awareness of this, wouldn’t the emotions be valid as responses of God pointing to the inaccuracies of our awareness (beliefs), because God is whole, God is love, God is light, so there is no relativity to trigger the question of what God is, to God, in the first place. It’s thinking which inherently has no truth, even for Einstein. Looking to thinking for what God is, is the same as looking at a tree for what God is. It’s obvious / self evident, that as it is, there is God. 

Other ways to state this - thank God for our ego’s. Ego is the very tool which shows us our self deception, so we can Self realize. Ego is the tool of liberation from suffering. Ego serves us by pointing to the truth, always, like a compass points north. The art is listening to the compass.  Awareness on the inner pain is the breadcrumbs to be God again - doing this work while ‘alive’ - OMG!, that’s the best of both ‘worlds’, as good as it gets!

Fear, evil, doubt..feel bad. We can listen to the compass, or we can start thinking about West, East, or South.  But thinking was the root of it. North, True North, is leaving the thinking, for awareness of God within. Love. It’s always the most powerful, there is no gettting around this. Only the illusion that we are getting around it, by going South, East, or West. In the end, all roads were always going North. Looping back within Self. The illusion of evil is, so God can experience God infinitely, and yet, not at all. 

[snowleopard]

@MarkusSweden  As nothing is precluded to the self-perpetuating Dream, as it conjures up any individual, and the illusion of time, why couldn't it play out countless variations on any given theme, in perpetuity?  

[cirkussmile]

Reincarnation and no self is contradictory if we look from a non dual perspective.

On the apparent level it's obvious that reincarnation excist. Animals die and gives food to other animals and life continues

[MiracleMan]

8 hours ago, MarkusSweden said:

Because, what is reincarnated when there is no such thing as a self(ego)? 

Yet these two concepts of "no self" and "reincarnation" are compatible in many spiritual traditions and religions it seems. Buddhism for example. 

Probably a newbie question that's already discussed a number of times.

Sorry for that, but I'm curios.  

Just my opinion, these are all concepts to me as I'm not enlightened and have no authority to present this as truth.  Disclaimer over!

According to buddhism, once you attain nirvana there is no more reincarnation or karma.  So you are actually correct, that is a contradiction, because reincarnation is the form we take, once you realize you aren't the form, it isn't that there is no reason to incarnate, you just aren't that, you aren't the form, the form appears to you, but is not you.

Once you realize who you are, if "you" (ego) goes away, and there the true you stays, you know who you are, eternal, limitless, timeless. 

The cycle of birth and death is over, karma is over, if you realize you are what everything arises too, it's over.  I believe form is the conduit for realizing you aren't that.  How could nothingness know itself without form?  Formlessness needs the form to realize itself, and form needs formlessness to exist.  No thing can exist, can stand on it's own, without the space for it to exist in.  Tolle has called it space consciousness, or just being more aware of space (formlessness) instead of just form.  This is why buddhism uses the phrase "emptiness" a lot and they say the true nature of reality is indeed emptiness.  When I started on a path a while back this was morbidly depressing, but I was totally missing the point.  You can t have one without the other.  

Edited February 6, 2018 by MiracleMan

[SOUL]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I suspect the universe might have a higher purpose of self-understanding

Absolutely, there is, although I won't venture to explain what I experience as revelation in exploring it other than it's a 'feature' for the evolution of the universe.

Edited February 6, 2018 by SOUL

[Gopackgo]

I think the real question is: What difference does reincarnation make if the part of you that cares about reincarnation dies with the body/there is no memory of a previous life? To me, it seems that a lot of reincarnation dogma is a way that the self projects itself beyond death because it cant tolerate the idea of non-existence. Other ways it might do this is to conceptualize heaven/hell, or maybe it can take the form of worrying about it's legacy.

Maybe there is an afterlife/reincarnation, but maybe it can't be known until death happens. In my mind, it is sort of irrelevant. I'm not asserting that as truth, and I am not denying that some people's experiences of past lives are void by any means. Maybe I will experience that one day. But, it seems that the line of questioning what happens after death arises from not being able to accept that physical death will occur. You just have to look at your own experience, and question what motives there might be for those concepts to exist.

[Reflection]

On 2/6/2018 at 3:08 AM, MarkusSweden said:

Because, what is reincarnated when there is no such thing as a self(ego)? 

Yet these two concepts of "no self" and "reincarnation" are compatible in many spiritual traditions and religions it seems. Buddhism for example. 

Probably a newbie question that's already discussed a number of times.

Sorry for that, but I'm curios.  

Good question.  It was one of the questions I had to work myself through on my journey as well.

Most people think of the soul and reincarnation like this - My name is Mark and my souls name is also Mark, and it looks just like I did when I was 20, and its separate from everyone else's soul, and when my body dies this soul will be placed into a new body.

This way of thinking is an attempt to preserve the ego, even beyond physical death.  Don't feel discouraged if that is what you are doing, the ego is very powerful and will do everything it can to preserve itself.

The way I think of it is like this - This light is not my own.  We all share the same eternal soul, and all other beings I will ever witness in my life are other incarnations of myself existing simultaneously.  In that way, this one great soul reincarnates itself.  And yet, you are that.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Reflection

[Joseph Maynor]

No self is not a theory.  It’s a realization you have when you stop legitimizing conceptual-truth as truth.  When that nest of concepts has been transcended, what remains is not individuated.  Most people are so addicted to thoughts, they need a psychedelic to give them a glimpse of no self.  But you don’t need psychedelics if you are on the path.  What you need to do is stop grasping at concepts so much and just become comfortable resting as awareness.  But it’s almost like the Mind has to get fed up and do this, you can’t will this.   But there’s a shift that happened for me when I finally grokked what not knowing means.  And it doesn’t mean never using concepts or being stupid, it just means that the addiction to conceptual-truth goes away.  Addiction to conceptual-truth is our worst addiction, and most people don’t even grok that fully.  Or even if they do understand it, they don’t practice it.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Joseph Maynor]

On 2/6/2018 at 3:29 AM, Leo Gura said:

There could be a meta-self which persists across indvidual lifetimes. This meta-self might purposefully stay hidden during the present lifetime so as not to interfere with the lessons that this lifetime is supposed to teach.

Sorta like how you can go to a movie theater and watch several movies back to back. But each movie stands on its own as a self-consistent world. But you can still think about all 3 movies and draw lessons from all 3 of them combined in a sort of meta-analysis.

This meta-self could even be responsible for deciding which world/life it will inhabit next in order to gain the necessary lessons. For example, your meta-self might decide to become a crippled child or the next Hitler. So it could learn the joys and struggles of that.

Just a theory.

I suspect the universe might have a higher purpose of self-understanding which surpasses anything the human mind can conceive of. After all, if you were God, your #1 priority would probably be to understand yourself. But this is a tricky problem for God because God is infinite. So God is then in a sort of prepetual struggle of self-understanding.

I have become conscious of certain things which fit with that vein. For example, I've become conscious of why everything is happening as it is. Or why humans are as they are. But it is such a multi-parallel understanding that it cannot be articulated or even thought. I can't even think it to myself let alone explain it.

Imagine for example a mind which is 1 billion times more powerful than a human's, and what kinds of things it might understand. The possibilites are quite radical.

It helps if you start thinking of human understanding of the universe as ant-like.

You guys are way too addicted to conceptual truth.  I would be remiss if I didn’t tell you.  You think reality gives a sh*t about all these ideas?  The ants you are talking about are your conceptual musings.  Those are what’s illusory, ironically.  You think you’re getting somewhere with these musings, but you’re just spinning your wheels addicted to conceptual truth, not ever solving or addressing the deeper problem.  Is our aim still Enlightenment?  If so, we gotta change some programming still.  I’ve noticed this problem getting worse lately too.  It’s like someone finally took the cap off the speculation water pistol and now it’s everywhere, like a fruit-fly infestation.  Someone is trying to look smart.  But it’s just a distraction in this work.  Trust me, I did this for way too long myself, so I get it — It’s a tough addiction to break.  For conceptual people, it’s probably the hardest addiction to break.  So, I am compassionate about it — but I gotta mention it or I feel like I’m not doing my best to help teach awakening, which is part of my life purpose.  So, I don’t want to embarrass or hurt anyone, I just want to point out that you’re way off in the rough, in the weeds. On a golf course, you might just forget about it, put the ball back down at your feet and hit the reset button.  There’s no failure, just learning.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[MarkusSweden]

 

Easy trap for me as well. Conceptual thinking has to end at some point..

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by MarkusSweden

[Joseph Maynor]

24 minutes ago, MarkusSweden said:

@Joseph Maynor You can't say these things about Leo. Didn't you noticed who you responded to?? 

Leo meets us where we need him. He taylor his teaching to the current level that each of us find ourselves at. 

He might use paradoxes in this particular teaching..

..By pretending to be conceptual, he let us see the flaws of conceptual thinking.

You are too blind to see them in yourself, so he let you see them in your master.

He freely lowering himself for us in order to indirect see our own faults in him! That way he sacrifice his own psyche to save and rescue our psyches. 

Now that's a master, he is even so great that he can afford to cease to be a master for the greater good!

Prestige has no value to him. A master don't bother about own gains like status or being wise, he's beyond that. He do what's best for our development.    

But I can only guess, his intentions are always beyond my understanding. I can only know they are for our very best interests. 

Your reaction is precisely the one he aimed for, in order for you to see for yourself, your own flaws regarding conceptual thinking.

We can never understand Leo, he will always be lightyears ahead any of us.

We are ants compare to his genius. It's just silly and pretentious of us when we try to understand. 

We can only be sure that he always help us and meet us where our needs are at the current moment.

He know your very own self-knowledge and progress much better then you, yourself do. Have faith in that. It will set you free! 

There have been many claimed masters throughout history, but those are frauds.

History have only known ONE master, and WILL know only one master. And that's Leo. 

And you can tell, He doesn't even call himself a master, which is a sign of a REAL master.

Only a real master denies his mastery nature 

So please, pick your words wisely Joseph. 

(If Leo were a cult, thanks God it's not, that's why this forum is great)  

 

 

 

This has to be tongue in cheek.  Leo appreciates my honesty.  You keep trying to control me.  That shows your strong Ego identification.  You worry about you.  Let Leo defend himself, he’s more than capable of it.  Have you read my response to you yet?  The one about “No self”.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Ocean]

1 hour ago, Joseph Maynor said:

You guys are way too addicted to conceptual truth.  I would be remiss if I didn’t tell you.  You think reality gives a sh*t about all these ideas?  The ants you are talking about are your conceptual musings.  Those are what’s illusory, ironically.  You think you’re getting somewhere with these musings, but you’re just spinning your wheels addicted to conceptual truth, not ever solving or addressing the deeper problem.  Is our aim still Enlightenment?  If so, we gotta change some programming still.  I’ve noticed this problem getting worse lately too.  It’s like someone finally took the cap off the speculation water pistol and now it’s everywhere, like a fruit-fly infestation.  Someone is trying to look smart.  But it’s just a distraction in this work.  Trust me, I did this for way too long myself, so I get it — It’s a tough addiction to break.  For conceptual people, it’s probably the hardest addiction to break.  So, I am compassionate about it — but I gotta mention it or I feel like I’m not doing my best to help teach awakening, which is part of my life purpose.  So, I don’t want to embarrass or hurt anyone, I just want to point out that you’re way off in the rough, in the weeds. On a golf course, you might just forget about it, put the ball back down at your feet and hit the reset button.  There’s no failure, just learning.

Maybe take some time off and come to terms with things.

The fact you reference that this is a life a purpose means that your ego thinks it's enlightened as it's on a mission. Even though it is telling you it can't be enlightened, maya is a trickster, and many have called you out on this yet you choose to ignore it.  Look at your own posts as if it wasn't you that wrote them.

You have two choices after reading this post if you defend your position once again, that can only come from maya and you're lost again in her, if you settle with it and ask yourself, "Could this also be maya speaking?" and do some work on it, you might come out the other end a bit earlier.

Maya plays with everything, including enlightenment, which means you will only respond one way.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Ocean

[Joseph Maynor]

19 minutes ago, Ocean said:

Maybe take some time off and come to terms with things.

The fact you reference that this is a life a purpose means that your ego thinks it's enlightened as it's on a mission. Even though it is telling you it can't be enlightened, maya is a trickster, and many have called you out on this yet you choose to ignore it.  Look at your own posts as if it wasn't you that wrote them.

You have two choices after reading this post if you defend your position once again, that can only come from maya and you're lost again in her, if you settle with it and ask yourself, "Could this also be maya speaking?" and do some work on it, you might come out the other end a bit earlier.

Maya plays with everything, including enlightenment, which means you will only respond one way.

If my honesty hurts your ears — that’s probably a good thing.  Your projections are irrelevant.  There are too many sock-puppet accounts for me to know who any of you are.  So, I will not address this issue here anymore.  The advice was aimed at Leo.  Let him make of it what he will.  It was made in good faith, without alterior motive.  Sometimes the truth is not pleasant.  Sometimes reality is not pleasant.  To assume reality should always be to your liking is Ego.  As I grow, my advice is gonna change.  Accept that.  I have paid my dues to be where I am on the path.  If my words don’t suit you, ignore them.  But don’t pretend like you know me or understand me.  I don’t think I’ve ever seen you on here before until now.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Ocean]

@Joseph Maynor Good luck. Just make sure your ego doesn't start a cult of some kind with all that mission talk. Far too many deaf people leading the deaf.

 

Added:

I have to say, I haven't had the feeling of embarrassment in a long time and yet when I read your posts it seems to flood my body. Thank you for that, interesting feeling and a nice memory so to speak.

"I'm only telling you that for your own good" as you like to say, even though it was unnecessary and could be hurtful to your current identity .

Edited February 8, 2018 by Ocean

[MarkusSweden]

1 hour ago, Joseph Maynor said:

This has to be tongue in cheek.  Leo appreciates my honesty.  You keep trying to control me.  That shows your strong Ego identification.  You worry about you.  Let Leo defend himself, he’s more than capable of it.  Have you read my response to you yet?  The one about “No self”.

Did you rant over Leo's non duality Hitler-episode last Sunday? lol 

It was a joke Joseph, I thought it was somewhat tense inhere, just tried to ease things up a little bit. 

I even told you explicit in the very last sentence, no doubt it was a joke it in the first place though.  

Fortunately we have other things in common, like music and journaling.  

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by MarkusSweden