Infinity and Time

[Angelo John Gage]

I've watched many of the Christians VS  atheists debates about God. My favorite Christian debater would be John Lennox, a professor of Mathematics at Oxford University, who uses logic to really put forward solid arguments. Of course, the Christian and Atheist both do not like the paradox of infinite regresses because it is illogical, But in Leo's videos, he says that this IS how it is. 

Now when I watched Leo's  videos about Absolute Infinity I found them interesting; however, there is one thing that I think we have to reexamine closely and that is that infinity must always be moving; like perpetual energy, having cause and effect forever in a cyclic manner, or of some sort we cannot comprehend. On some of my trips, I've actually see this cyclical motion, which wasn't pleasant to be honest and was infinite in nature.

But here's the issue: Time

If I threw an apple at you and it took an infinite amount of time to get to you; it would never happen. How could it? Now the argument could be "time doesn't exist" or "God exists outside of time" . But what is time anyway, if not simply a measurement of motion from A to B; thus made up by an observer? Yet in order for God to do anything, it must also be moving, so even though there is no "time" per se, like there is no "evil", as we humans made up these concepts to observe and understand the universe/reality, this doesn't mean that those things do not actually have any basis or grounding because we can observe things moving and changing, even if it was an illusion.

Leo speaks of the Absolute Infinity expanding forever in all directions, but also contracting forever inward; again this can be that we are limited in words to explain such a paradoxical phenomenon. In fact, even in his trips, he was moving forever into certain windows etc; but how can one be moving with no time.

Even in my trip with DMT, when I met Hindu gods who destroyed my ego, each event happened in the infinite amount time I seemed to be there, and things were moving.

One Christian debater, William Lane Craig, argues that God is in fact, "changeless" and is absolute. This to me means that his is always one way. But that would defy any infinite nature and make him finite. Another paradox: How could something changeless move or do anything at all? How could something changeless act?

So you see here, both views are mind-boggling; to logically end an infinite regress, we would have to end up with a changeless eternal God, but then how can anything else be other than it; especially when we see things changing. And if we go with the infinite regress, how could anything happen either, when it would take an infinite amount of time for anything to happen.

We can simply say "well it is how it is" but that's cannot be the truth. Of course the rebuttal will be, "but there is no Absolute Truths Angelo," yet that very statement you are claiming to be absolutely true.

So I wouldn't throw logic out the window and simply say that answers should be paradoxical and we should accept them; even if reality is a hologram and a mirror mirroring itself, or is absolutely nothing.

Discuss lol...

[YaNanNallari]

When it comes to basis for reality, even if there is a basis, how could we know it's the ultimate basis? If something were to change, we also wouldn't know on what level it ultimately changed.

As I've understood it different times exist in different vibrations. But they exist at the same time. What is time? I don't know. But if you threw an apple, would that mean it would take infinite amounts of time? If it takes an infinite amount of time, it's not necessarily an issue, for how do we know anything is happening? What is "to happen"? You're just facing a wall of you don't know, which is one thing infinity and enlightenment is about. Admitting that you don't know. Now you can either stay debating and stuck or realize this debating is not something very good for realizing your "true nature" because of the infinite nature that has no answers. So instead go on this exciting adventure of discovering what it is like to be enlightened 

When someone says god is changeless I suppose they're describing only an aspect of god or how it seems to be. Not to be mean but the person is religious anyway. They probably have no clue whatsoever.

Edited December 22, 2017 by YaNanNallari

[LaucherJunge]

@Angelo John Gage
Let me take a movie as an example. A movie consists of many frames or pictures each of those pictures was already there all the time but we put it together chronologically in order to make a movie out of it. 
The absolute of God which can't be expressed in words is already absolute, change is only the illusion we are able experience with our limited bodys, God itself can only experience this change with certain limitations like time and space, that is why we exist in the first place, to experience exactly that.

[Nahm]

@Angelo John Gage the issue is that we can’t say or hear the truth. What a mindfuck, huh?

[Shu]

Chiken & egg nausea alert))))

[Joseph Maynor]

The infinity idea never really resonated with me much.  I just call it nothingness or everything.  I also call it the Universe when I want to give it a metaphorical persona.  Time is a concept that we use to theorize about change.  But all change is an illusion because the Now never changes.  

Edited December 24, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Nahm]

The movement and the perceiver, the now & time, are baked into the illusion, like the rest of the words & thoughts. ?

[Angelo John Gage]

@Shiva Because nothing is permanent and is always changing; life and death; the 4 seasons,etc... cyclical  

[Faceless]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

The movement and the perceiver, the now & time, are baked into the illusion, like the rest of the words & thoughts. ?

??Does this imply that this movement and the now is static? Therefore a movement within the finite 

Edited December 24, 2017 by Faceless

[Faceless]

@Nahm And that without the perceiver which is the perceived there would be a movement of itself, dynamic and active?  

[Nahm]

@Faceless nuthins movin. its an illusion. it is convincing.  still though, what are the odds of all this? like one in infinite. 

[Faceless]

@Nahm

no-thing in its essence can move. Because a thing is a thought right? Thoughts are static? I mean there a process that moves but the content is static. This make sense? 

[Nahm]

@Faceless i don’t know man....i don’t think properties of any kind apply.  

[Highest]

If infinity is a fact, it is only so when experienced and known only trough that experience. All attempts trying to understand it trough the mind is futile. I don't deny that reality is infinite because I take Leo's word for it, he has experienced it. His experience is no less valuable than mine, and if anything is true it is pure direct experience. But we still don't know what it is no matter how much we try, we have to experience it trough dmt or whatever. As for time, it's an illusion, although a very good one.

[Faceless]

@Nahm excuse me ??

property as in quality of the content of thought. “The limited” That which is used to investigate that which is beyond thought “the infinit” 

what I meant was let’s see the nature of the tool used to inventestigate.

Is thought limited, static, Frozen knowledge? 

Not only by thought/knowledge but also by the limited ability to capture the whole of an experience. Consciousness is very selective. 

Please others join in..Leo, okaythen and more 

 

Edited December 24, 2017 by Faceless

[Nahm]

@Faceless i hear what your sayin. the thinking perpetuates the illusion.  thats the funny part.  

[Cepzeu]

The word 'moving' leads to the confusion I believe. Like @Nahm said it's an illusion. Reality doesn't move through time, it simply exists. You say that we can observe things moving and changing but (from what I understand) for something to change it must fave been some other way compared to how it is in the now. The thing is that 'that-some-other-way' that it was doesn't actually exist because the past is an illusion (The reference frame that we remember from the past, doesn't actually exist). Nothing is knowable. If you throw an apple you can think that it might fly to a certain destination but you can't know because the future hasn't happened yet (i.e any idea of where it might fly to is an illusion). Time is also an illusion because the future and the past don't exist in the now. You could sort of think about it like things happen in 1 ms frames but even that is wrong. Reality "progresses" or "refreshes" at an infinitely fast rate.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Cepzeu

[Nahm]

@Angelo John Gage i’ve watched a lot of debates as well. Even though he’s really limited to the science paradigm, don’t you kind of come to love Richard Dawkins? Or is it just me?