Stop letting woman use you

[LordFall]

@Olaf That’s the entire paradox right there.

You want to act dominant, but only in low-stakes everyday scenarios with vanilla girls by saying "no" to carrying a bag or picking a restaurant. The second actual female submission and kink show up, you get repelled. It’s not dominance you're looking for, it's just a low-risk way to manage your own anxiety. Real polarity requires being able to handle and match female sexuality without flinching.

Women are usually way kinkier than men, they have a deeper pool of emotions to fantasize with. 

Edited 2 hours ago by LordFall

[Olaf]

@Ulax its a sad day for the bdsm girl homies lol

[Olaf]

@LordFall relax, I have my own type of woman I fall for, everyone has their type I don't judge

[LordFall]

I'm not responding to your type of woman, more to the psychology you're displaying with the original post and how you're falling prey to surface-level behaviours vs deep character that shows up as a result of a developed identity built from actually dominating your life. 

Edited 2 hours ago by LordFall

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

What's missing is instead of analysing the dynamics, one should be focusing on relating to the other person.

Relational understanding is more conducive to "frame control" or "leadership". When someone feels truly seen, understood and known - they become remarkably receptive and open to alternative frames, perspectives and opinions. 

Women are particularly sensitive to being analysed and seen through a "frame" which often endeavours to explain her instead of understand.

At work, I don't try to control subcontractors through any sort of frame or understanding. I relate to their experience, their troubles & I negotiate a solution that ties into their meaning. As soon as they feel seen, they feel validated. They will follow my lead. 

Psychoanalysis or logically trying to understand them never rallies or incentivizes them to work 5 hour of O/T like connection though relational understanding does.

100%

The main problem-dynamics that I see on this section of the forum tend to come from trying to analyze women rather than understand the individual woman as a person.

And this analysis tends to come mostly from fear and trying to get a very specific validating outcome by gaining more knowledge. That way, there's the ability to control for maximum emotional protection.

Contrast that with a man who feels comfortable with himself, detached from outcomes, and truly present with the reality and not his logical understanding of what a man 'should' do.... and the difference is night and day.

The man this describes will come across with much more safe, stable, and centered energy. And this level of maturity allows a woman to relax more.

And this is where the subtle Masculine/Feminine attraction polarities that are being aimed at can actually play out.

This is all very subtle, of course.

It whispers... and it doesn't shout. And it doesn't fit neatly in boxes.

But it's difficult to understand what "leadership" means when it's subtle and understated.

And it's perhaps difficult for heterosexual men to recognize what makes men come across as an attractive man who can be safely relied upon and trusted with leadership.

So, there's a tendency to gild the lily of Masculinity... like putting a hat on a hat. 

Instead, it's better to simply become centered and grounded in one's self, such that the opinions of other people don't sway their opinions of themselves.

And with that, the analysis projection and tactics can drop away... and a real connection can be established.

[Ulax]

8 minutes ago, LordFall said:

@Olaf That’s the entire paradox right there.

You want to act dominant, but only in low-stakes everyday scenarios with vanilla girls by saying "no" to carrying a bag or picking a restaurant. The second actual female submission and kink show up, you get repelled. It’s not dominance you're looking for, it's just a low-risk way to manage your own anxiety. Real polarity requires being able to handle and match female sexuality without flinching.

Women are usually way kinkier than men, they have a deeper pool of emotions to fantasize with. 

False equivalency

[Ulax]

9 minutes ago, Olaf said:

@Ulax its a sad day for the bdsm girl homies lol

hahaha

[LordFall]

2 minutes ago, Ulax said:

False equivalency

Not at all. How so? 

[Ulax]

5 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Instead, it's better to simply become centered and grounded in one's self, such that the opinions of other people don't sway their opinions of themselves.

And with that, the analysis projection and tactics can drop away... and a real connection can be established.

This is a fairytale

[Emerald]

16 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@oOo interested in what in particular reads as "try hard" from Emerald? 

I feel like that could just as easily be applied to me, really 😅😅😅

I think he perceived me to be insulting the OP, by saying the tactic in the original post came across as 'try-hard'.

So, he was just giving the same insult back because he got defensive.

[Emerald]

Just now, Ulax said:

This is a fairytale

It's a fairy-tale for you to be grounded and centered in your own authenticity... and to drop tactics?

[Ulax]

Just now, LordFall said:

Not at all. How so? 

Being the leader and being sexually aroused by bdsm girls do not necessarily come together

[Ulax]

8 minutes ago, Emerald said:

It's a fairy-tale for you to be grounded and centered in your own authenticity... and to drop tactics?

Its a fairytale that that is better

[Olaf]

@Emerald tactics are temporary guidances until they are internalised and can be dropped. Authentically being yourself isn't always the solution, it is a mix of authenticity and being relatable. I remember being my authentic self for the first time in the club a few years ago and got so much attention and people being drawn to me, but also I was saying some really unrelatable and potentially unintended offending them, alienating people. So a balance is needed, both with tactics, being relatable and then dropping it all and being authentic.

Edited 1 hour ago by Olaf

[LordFall]

18 minutes ago, Ulax said:

Being the leader and being sexually aroused by bdsm girls do not necessarily come together

It's not about whether a guy personally wants to engage in BDSM; it's about the contrast between performative resistance and actual leadership.

Getting your way when deciding where to eat is not leadership. Leadership is leading the way in uncomfortable and dangerous situations. When your girl loses her job and has to decide to move back with her parents or trust you to take care of her life is leadership. When you have to decide how to allocate your finances to not get ruined in uncertain times, that's leadership. Uncomfortable sexual scenarios tend to mirror that.

Women want a man that's actually gonna have their back when shit goes wrong. Not a dude that tells them no to prove to himself that he has a backbone.

Edited 1 hour ago by LordFall

[Joshe]

2 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

But also, to learn what you did most likely also meant you DIDN'T prematurely close in on a frame and become locked. I don't know how you experience Ni, but for me it is really tacit. I have no fucken idea how I come to the conclusions or knowings I have - and I continually have to reverse engineer from the conclusion explicitly to understand (and I've been burned by my tacit conclusions often enough now I make a really concerted effort to never simply roll with my 'Knowings"). So often I am taken aback by conversations based on game, PUA, frame etc 

Yes, that's how I've always experienced Ni too. As a kid, I was really odd because I was in constant observer mode, like just trying to soak up data to understand everything that was going on around me. I remember going to school and being a loner and didn't even care and wasn't bothered by it in the slightest because observer mode was too dominant. And the key thing about that mode was that it wasn't trying to close because it wasn't even close to being able to make sense of the world. It was like that until about mid 20s. Mid 20s, all the data started to crystallize and I realized over and over where the intuitions from all the observations started to be right, and where they were wrong. And when they were wrong, I had to know why, like a compulsion. So basically, whatever this cognitive architecture I have is, it was just training the shit out intuition and it had built-in correction mechanisms that were fine-tuning it. Ni proposes, Te disposes. Eventually, my intuitions became so mystical to me that it was like "how tf do I know this?" And for me, Te is really strong, so I would put in the work to understand how I knew - untangling the Ni. After years of untangling the Ni, things got even more mystical because the system just kept proving things that I myself wasn't actually working to produce, or at least, it didn't seem like it other than the Te. Once I gained competence in unpacking Ni, that's when I started closing more. The craziest thing is when you're highly metacognitive AND have Ni AND can competently unpack Ni. That's a strange default mode to live in. 

And the thing is, I'm aware where there are holes. I can sense it, but that doesn't stop me from trying to fill them in. And part of the process of filling them in is to actually make guesses and be wrong. And when I'm wrong, it registers like a serious violation to my system, which ups the stakes.

And I'm guessing being wrong registers like a serious violation to you too, which is why you're so vigilant about avoiding it? I've intuited that before, which is why I wrote you, basically a letter once lol, explaining why it's ok to be wrong and the utility of it, and that you should open yourself up to it more. I've considered that maybe you aren't as Te heavy, thus not as likely to unpack your Ni...maybe? I believe we spoke before about how Te is likely different/weaker for a woman.

Also, if you knew me in real life, you would see how careful I am with closing on things. Here on the forum, I have time to think and unpack the Ni, but it's not like that in real life. I mean, I still have sharp intuition, but it arrives as a knowing without a chain of evidence, which sucks, lol.

2 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Explicit frames being learned and applied, to me, seem so alien... but I see the use. And I have come to use these methods as an alternative to my straight Ni. I am almost trying to break my Ni at this time in my life, if that makes sense. to "get out' of it, because it is so much of my processing I cannot make it out clearly. I cannot see my eyes.

Yeah, same here. It's disposition. I used to want to embody other modes of being, but then when I thought about it and tried it, was like fuck that. There's no escape from you Ni, sorry, lol. Try to immerse yourself in Si, the function furthest from you, and see what kind of hell you create for yourself, lol. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Joshe

[Natasha Tori Maru]

20 minutes ago, Olaf said:

@Emerald tactics are temporary guidances until they are internalised and can be dropped. Authentically being yourself isn't always the solution, it is a mix of authenticity and being relatable. I remember being my authentic self for the first time in the club a few years ago and got so much attention and people being drawn to me, but also I was saying some really unrelatable and potentially unintended offending them, alienating people. So a balance is needed, both with tactics, being relatable and then dropping it all and being authentic.

This passage is interesting to me. 

If expressing yourself in this way is "authentic" expression, but it causes offense and runs up against a value (in this case harmony, unintended alienation) was it really authentic expression? 

If our authenticity is violating a value, it seems to me something may NOT be authentic and expressed as truth. Maybe it points to something unintegrated that is yet to be revealed (IE on our unconscious awareness). And once we find that truth within us, connect to it, our authentic expression won't contradict one of our values. 

Authenticy is a complex topic - and it relates to values. When we feel like expression is totally in the moment we often label it as authentic - but is it really if it runs up against a core value?

Edited 1 hour ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Joshe remarkable how similar the growth process you describe is, to my own. Jesus. 

I think I am heavy Te - but it's all expressed in construction and my work. I tend to flirt with it less so in cognitive realms like philosophy, metaphysics or forum dialogue. It may not be manifesting here because it is spent in real life? But also, I am a woman, and socialised to prioritise feelings and group cohesion. So I have had certain other functions beaten in to me, so to speak. 

I don't mind being wrong really. But for me, the stupid Ni can shift frames to mean so many things can be looked at as right/wrong! Not all. The forum is low stakes, so being wrong here is okay.

Being wrong on my takeoff for a hebel cladding estimate could fold my business though.... So it's fair to say that risk assessment may be happening subconsciously. Lucky I am decisive as fuck. Which is also why I am okay being wrong too - I make decisions based on what limited information I have. If it's wrong I am all good taking responsibility. 

If you are anything like me with emotions though, sometimes I just get charged up and dig my heels in. Which is out of alignment to my normal rational self. Which is all humans really 😁 and also why I try to not explain someone's psychology or pathologise them with my elaborate internal mechanistic explanations. Maybe they were just having a bad day! 

Maybe I should try break my Ni with Si for a bit, instead of going meta meta into recursive nightmares (which is incidentally why I think you and I zoom all over the shop with conversation, it's in an infinite recursion happening in real time). 

Enjoyed the chats I think I understand you better, rather than just explain behaviour ⚡

[Joshe]

19 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Being wrong on my takeoff for a hebel cladding estimate could fold my business though.... 

Yeah, I don't rely on Ni with work. Too risky. Except it did pop into it the other day when a client was trying to bullshit me that my latest deliverable had a problem I had already solved and verified wasn't a problem anymore. And because they misinterpreted something, they kept insisting there was a problem and I told them to reverify and they told me they did and the problem was still there, so I asked for a screenshot to confirm and they refused. I struggle to keep my Ni out of situations like that. It's like "I KNOW you're full of shit", lol. I have been wrong in one of those situations before, so I'm careful not to imply I think they're full of it. But yeah, that's a lesson I had to learn: Ni doesn't belong in my work. Some day, I hope to move into a line of work that requires it. 

Past my bedtime. I enjoyed it as well, and my Te did update my model of you in a more positive light tonight, so that's good!