My Latest Insights on Dating & Game (TRIGGER WARNING)

[Zenterus]

   1. DAYGAME SUCKS

I'm about to ruffle some feathers with this one, off the bat. Keep in mind, though, that I'm speaking as someone who has been doing this for like 10 years, so I'm no longer in the business of "practising," I'm here for real consistent results and daygame doesn't provide you that. In fact, if the purpose of Game and self actualization is to develop yourself into a high value individual (for real, not as a facade) then daygame is a complete antithesis to that. What High Value man runs around during the daytime, scouting for girls to approach? A man who isn't on his purpose and who doesn't have much of a life. Daygame has the least time-investment and ROI ratio out of all the dating strategies. Even social circle game (SCG) is superior because, while SCG is much slower, you're at least getting multiple returns on your invested time -- social media content, doing cool things with cool people, having low-pressure get-togethers to invite potential prospects to. With Day Game all you get is a couple of low-conversion rate phone numbers that you collected over a ridiculous span of time depending on how high your standards are, the occasional pull here and there -- which I personally don't care to do, at this point in my journey -- and some cardio.

I am in no way discrediting Day Game as a valid source of practise and potential connection. In fact, the best way to do Day Game is if you're on your purpose, out and about, and you approach girls who genuinely catch your fancy on your way to do the cool shit that you'd already be doing whether girls were around or not. But the concept of leaving your house, in the day time, specifically to meet girls is just.. nah. Even better is just be social and friendly with everyone in passing as you go through your day, without forcing anything ,and let connection and chemistry reveal itself, naturally. But your day should be spent pursuing your goals and hobbies, connecting with friends and family and making money. 

Now for those of you who are not convinced or you feel like this is something you have to do, then here's a little tip: Day Game during the early to mid evening, not in the afternoon, and you will get better responses.

   2. BUILDING A TRIBE IS THE ANSWER TO ALL YOUR DATING WOES

I know LordFall will be doing happy back-flips with this one. Here is a fact: Attraction is contextual. What is a High Value Man other than a man who stands out in some unique way within a context where other men are present? The reason that I can go to a club or a bar and get massive attraction and optionality is because the women there are evaluating me in comparison to other men. I could approach those same women one-on-one on the street and, while I can be charismatic as fuck and get her super attracted to me, her level of interest will pale in comparison to how she'd feel about me when she interacts with me in a social environment. In that context, she is witness to how others treat me, how my charisma and style stand out from the crowd around me and experiences the volatility of my attention which eventually will prompt her to chase me much harder than she would've otherwise. 

Most of pickup was developed before the social media age and it is time for it to adapt. When you're going out to socialize, the goal should be equally to make cool friends as it is to meet attractive women. Invite these new friends to go out with you, to come to the gym with you, meet their friends, throw parties, travel together, share ideas. This will result in you living a way more interesting life, which will then make your social media a lot more engaging (cool posts of you doing cool shit with cool men and women, as well as regular stories that your friends help you take), which makes meeting people a lot easier either because you're introduced to them by someone you know or because you're already having fun with your friends while out, which makes approaching effortless, or because your social media does a lot of the heavy lifting. Either way, you become a way more attractive man and dating becomes so much easier. I'd even go as far as to say that you should be aiming to be going out with people way more than going out with yourself.

Furthermore, here's another fact: For a lot of women, attraction and emotional investment is gradual not instantaneous. That means that a lot of women need to spend time around you over a longer span of time before they fully experience genuine feelings of attraction for you. Again, this is not ALL WOMEN, this is A LOT of women, there's a difference. So perhaps it's time for you to think about not only going out to cold approach and find women who you have that INSTANT chemistry with, but also taking up a dance class, swimming, starting your own meetup event or join a running club that will open your dating pool to the rest of women that need that gradual connection.

Lastly, social circle game creates the most optimal conditions for you to get your dream dating life. Women are more likely to hold you in very high regard and be utmost compliant to you when you're in a leadership position of a social circle that they're a part of and have been exposed to your power of influence over a prolonged period. This doesn't mean you can't get your dream dating life through pickup, by the way. Of course you can, I've done it, but there're levels beyond. If you're able to combine pickup with social circle and social media game, you're putting yourself in the best position to be pursued by attractive women who are, therefore, a lot more open to having whatever type of relationship you want because of all the social value you have concentrated around yourself, granted you did a good job at branding yourself in the right way. 

   3. WOMEN ACTUALLY DON'T LIKE PLAYERS

Pickup teaches you this concept of the Lover vs Provider. The Lover being the fun, adventurous, abundant guy who doesn't give a fuck and is a bit of a wild stallion. The Provider being the safe option, the guy who went to school, got a good job and lives a very quiet boring life with very little social value, flow or swagger to him. Of course, no one wants to be the Provider, everyone wants to be the Lover because he gets the "better end of the deal." In the case you want a girlfriend, pickup teaches you to lead with being a Lover ALWAYS and then once you hookup with the girl, slowly transition into revealing more Provider qualities in you as she progressively invests in you. But actually, you want to be both from the start. The type of girl that would be attracted to a guy playing around with multiple girls in the environment, isn't a very high quality girl. Players screen for validation seeking, immature women who don't know their own worth and are, thus, looking to the player to validate them, which is why they chase their validation. A high quality woman who meets a guy in a social environment would be turned off by him flirting with multiple girls and being indecisive about who he truly wants. 

I've experienced this first hand so many times. One of my biggest sticking points is that when I go out, I enjoy having fun with multiple women and entertaining multiple options that I often times alienate women who might be a quality long-term option for me and, instead, end up being swarmed by a lot of validation seeking thots. The fact that you're still getting results doing that, makes it hard for you to see it as a faulty strategy because "Hey, these girls want me so it clearly works!" It takes a lot of reflection to realize that the women you alienated doing that were actually more mature compared to those that chased after you. Now, you still want to create options for yourself and interact with multiple women, but keep it lowkey and civil. Don't be too physical with any of them until you decided that they are your primary target and have a higher standard for the types of girls that you're interacting with. When all is said and done, you should be choosing between 2 or, maximum, 3 girls at any given night out socializing. The rest should've been disqualified way before it was time for you to make a decision for who you're sticking it out with for the evening. I do understand, though, that this point probably isn't very relevant to most of you.

   4. LOOKSMAXXING

This one is obvious yet I see so many guys dismissing it completely. Looks. Fucking. Matter. Dude. I'm not an advocate for plastic surgery and all this black pill bullshit, but you should be maximizing your fashion, grooming and overall physique. This does wonders for your game. Study the men around you who are dating the women that you want and adapt their style to yourself in an authentic way. This is important. Your look is the most immediate demonstration of value that the girl becomes aware of and so many guys pay little attention to it. It says a lot about you when you're able to dress in a way that fits a badass archetype of man comfortably without having cognitive dissonance or imposter syndrome -- which is why a lot of men don't do it. I won't harp on this point too much, but this isn't about looking like a buffed out Alpha Male. I know guys who are fat who are badasses. They dress in a cool way, have tattoos, masculine facial hair, a few nice accessories, a mullet and are surrounded by women. On the flip side, I know men who are physically fit and have a chiseled jaw that dress like their mom picks out their outfits. Now, I would advice most of you to get in shape, so please don't take the above example as an excuse not to, but the point is make sure you look as badass as you can right now. It matters.

Edited yesterday at 05:59 PM by Zenterus

[LordFall]

Yes Zenterus! You have probably the most well thought out dating takes on the forum. I crown you dating philosopher king.

It couldn't possibly be because you resonate with a lot of my ideas, I would never fall pray to such silly psychology. 

I like your insight on being interesting looking and not just 10% body fat greek god, that's a good point. A lot of "blue pill" men tend to be not able to get out of their comfort zones in all kinds of ways and one of those is just looking like any other dude out there. Women are interested in different archetypes and if you're just basic man number 8 at a party you're fighting an uphill battle.

A lot of dudes in the fashion industry are really cool looking and have a unique vibe to them just by experimenting with different styles and finding what works for them. I tried out grey colored contacts for a while and that got me really good reactions from women. I want to pierce my ears and get cross earrings next I feel like that is a badass style. 

Also there is a hidden frame control component to it that gives you a bit more power than other men. The billionaire with the t shirt in the sea of 6 figure dudes with suits type of thing. If you're comfortable standing out from the crowd it's an honest signal of confidence.

It's true that women don't like players in that they seek stability and a dude trying to fuck women left and right might be exciting but probably not be there for them when they need help or are preggo. That's why I always liked the idea of the purple pill concept. Take the beta qualities from the blue pill guys and the edginess of a red pill guy and be an interesting powerful man who doesn't submit to the conformity of society while still being a reliable supportive man.

The coolest part about building a tribe is that you get to choose your own adventure type of thing. By joining a social circle or just living in the same frinend group you've had since you were 12 or by going to a club you're really existing in social constructs that are not your own. Build it and they will come!  

 

Edited yesterday at 05:15 PM by LordFall

[Ulax]

Got to have evaluate an evaluation stage

[Rafael Thundercat]

Great ideias 

[Sugarcoat]

Happy 1 year on forum😄😂Just noticed

[Emerald]

This touches on a lot of things that I've been trying to convey to the guys on this forum about how women who are more discerning get attracted to a man.

And it's specifically because they have the "before pick-up" and "after pick-up" state... and they see, "Hey, I've been more successful after pick-up. Therefore it's clear that women find me more attractive after pick-up."

And it can feel like stumbling into a truism about what makes an attractive man in the eyes of most or all women... with the added psychological comfort of feeling like ambiguity and subjectivity is gone to where they can say, "Close the book. I now understand women."

Then, when I communicate how those techniques make a man less attractive and that it takes me months to be attracted to a guy and the immediacy of pick-up is a turn off... they think, 'That's so silly. Of course pick-up makes a man more attractive. I have the receipts. Like all women, this lady doesn't even know what she's attracted to. She's just in denial and doesn't want to admit that she's susceptible to these strategies because it's a hard truth to face with to admit you're attracted to pick-up strategies.'

And that's always been frustrating because it's like watching guys who are struggling to meet women adding the personality-equivalent of cheap cologne to themselves that a small percentage of women are attracted to the stench of... but that most women will find repellant. 

So, from my perspective it's a bunch of guys making themselves into less ideal potential husbands and fathers in order to attract low-discernment women.

But it's as you say it... "The fact that you're still getting results doing that, makes it hard for you to see it as a faulty strategy because "Hey, these girls want me so it clearly works!" It takes a lot of reflection to realize that the women you alienated doing that were actually more mature compared to those that chased after you."

And it becomes difficult when you're winning more battles to notice that you're paving your way to losing the war.

[aurum]

@Zenterus I'm with you on the daygame hate train.

It's usually way too indirect and filled with social obstacles.

[Leo Gura]

Daygame requires the right locations, which are only available in certain cities.

Just in general, game is very location dependent. The #1 thing in game is finding the best locations.

Edited 17 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Lyubov]

I was gonna basically say what Leo said.

Day game depends a lot on the place. There are a lot of places that you can organically go out and if you are open to the experience and in your flow you will meet a ton of people and girls. Just going to a mall where people are shopping or whatever is obviously a waste of energy and inherently needy. 

Places that are shit for: business areas, malls, cities during certain times of day, buses/metros. 

Good: beaches, walking streets when it’s warm and sunny, bar districts.

Obviously you gotta get a read on each place. 

Some examples of great cities for day game

Moscow in summer when people are out for walks in almost every part of the center, this is shooting fish in a barrel but language barrier is also a thing, a lot of tards with zero game approach the girls here so they sometimes have their guard up cause a weirdo approached them before you.

Rio de Janeiro along the beach in Zona Sul Ipanema or Copacabana, super easy to meet people if you fit in with Carioca or look good, very looks oriented here, they have a specific beach look they all aspire to, being very fit helps here and looking like a surfer or playboy helps a ton 

Edited 12 hours ago by Lyubov

[MarkKol]

21 hours ago, Zenterus said:

that I'm speaking as someone who has been doing this for like 10 years,

You have been cold approaching women for 10 years? 

[Zenterus]

@MarkKol Yes

[Zenterus]

19 hours ago, LordFall said:

Yes Zenterus! You have probably the most well thought out dating takes on the forum. I crown you dating philosopher king.

It couldn't possibly be because you resonate with a lot of my ideas, I would never fall pray to such silly psychology. 

Of course not! You're better than that!

19 hours ago, LordFall said:

The coolest part about building a tribe is that you get to choose your own adventure type of thing. By joining a social circle or just living in the same frinend group you've had since you were 12 or by going to a club you're really existing in social constructs that are not your own. Build it and they will come!  

I see what you're saying here and I do agree that you want to have your own tribe that's centered around you and your unique interests. However, you don't have to build your own meetup event to have that materialize. You can momentarily join other people's social circles and either systematically establish yourself as a leader (which any guy with any decent cold approach experience will easily be able to do compared to most normie guys) or you can simply extract the people you connect with the most and invite them to join your own social circle separately. The latter one is interesting because when you start inviting specific people from an existing social circle to join you on your own adventure on the side, other people start to get curious about you and where they stand with you because you didn't invite them. Over time, that can also lead to you becoming the center piece of the previously existing social circle because of the social value you convey with your selectivity and the stories they hear about you from the people you did invite to join your adventure.

[Zenterus]

@Sugarcoat Thank you

[Zenterus]

@Leo Gura @Lyubov I agree. Again, daygame is valid as a strategy but it has the lowest ROI out of all of them. It's no accident that some of the greatest PUAs basically only do night game. You gotta go where the party is and meet people who are out specifically to socialize and mate. If you want to chill and do a picnic, you go to the park, you don't just set up a blanket in the middle of the street. Social venues and events exist for a reason and day game is antithetical to that. 

Don't get me wrong though. I met my ex from daygame, I met a lot of my FWBs from daygame and had overall great success with it, but if you want consistent results and a better ROI for your efforts, daygame should be viewed as a complementary source of prospects rather than your bread and butter. Dating apps, nightgame and social circle game are the real bread and butter.

[Zenterus]

@Emerald Exactly. Although, if all you're looking for as a man is to get laid, then go nuts. I'm speaking from the perspective of wanting to attract  high quality partner, which I believe you are as well.

[LordFall]

5 hours ago, Zenterus said:

Of course not! You're better than that!

I see what you're saying here and I do agree that you want to have your own tribe that's centered around you and your unique interests. However, you don't have to build your own meetup event to have that materialize. You can momentarily join other people's social circles and either systematically establish yourself as a leader (which any guy with any decent cold approach experience will easily be able to do compared to most normie guys) or you can simply extract the people you connect with the most and invite them to join your own social circle separately. The latter one is interesting because when you start inviting specific people from an existing social circle to join you on your own adventure on the side, other people start to get curious about you and where they stand with you because you didn't invite them. Over time, that can also lead to you becoming the center piece of the previously existing social circle because of the social value you convey with your selectivity and the stories they hear about you from the people you did invite to join your adventure.

That's true but bro there is HUGE difference between being king of the castle and just being a high status guy in someone else's circle though. I learned this mainly through 2 painful experiences in my life.

I used to work at Cactus Club which is a trendy restaurant in downtown Toronto. I had hot server coworkers and invited them to the club with me one time. My roommate was a club promoter with a free booth and bottles in the biggest club in the city so I went out with him and I got lucky and one of the hottest servers I had a crush on came out that night and she used the guestlist I gave her to get quick entry to the club so I thought I was set. She came to the booth and took a shot with me and then she asked me who's booth is this? I wanna take a shot with the guy. 

Another time I went out with that same roommate and we were at a party that he organized and I was flirting with this cute girl that was friends with this other girl that my boy was flirting with. It was a big party and at the end it was kind of winding down and there was a 3rd friend of ours who was trying to flirt with the girl I had too. We ended up going back to our building and then it turns out that that guy was third wheeling so we told him bro love you but good night go home. We went back to the girls airbnb and to my horror as I kept trying to flirt with my girl turns out I was double wheeling and she was more down to have a threesome with my roommate than us both hooking up with our own respective girl. 

I reversed the situation and it turned out more in my favor when my own status increased and I was the one organizing everything it became much clearer that other guys in my setup were more like irrelevant visitors than true holders of power and influence and girls are much more attuned to these power dynamics than we are. 

Winner takes all is a key concept when it comes to social circle and status game and usually the top guy takes 90% and the 2nd dude takes 8% and the rest of the dudes are stuck fighting for the scraps and often times they don't get laid at all. 

There is a true meritocracy component to it because to build an empire is hard and it's much easier to collab with dudes and split the load and you should do that in a lot of ways but joint ventures are much better in my experience than really trying to make an egalitarian setup work. Hugh Hefner was the king of playboy and there was no #2 in command just employees. That's how you achieve true peak status and peak 10/10 SMV. Drake's producer and the other dudes in OVO don't have 50% of the status Drake has, they have like 5% which is still 500x more than the average guy but they're still irrelevant compared to the king. 

I built this brand with my business partner at the time and I realized that we were actually cucking eachother because nobody was king and we were both princes of the brand. It made it much less effective in terms of being a proper social circle and media ecosystem. That's why we ended up splitting it so that its fully his brand and my brands are fully mine and we collab for events but there is only one king of the castle for each brand.

https://www.instagram.com/the_velvet_network

Edited 2 hours ago by LordFall

[Lyubov]

5 hours ago, Zenterus said:

@Leo Gura @Lyubov I agree. Again, daygame is valid as a strategy but it has the lowest ROI out of all of them. It's no accident that some of the greatest PUAs basically only do night game. You gotta go where the party is and meet people who are out specifically to socialize and mate. If you want to chill and do a picnic, you go to the park, you don't just set up a blanket in the middle of the street. Social venues and events exist for a reason and day game is antithetical to that. 

Don't get me wrong though. I met my ex from daygame, I met a lot of my FWBs from daygame and had overall great success with it, but if you want consistent results and a better ROI for your efforts, daygame should be viewed as a complementary source of prospects rather than your bread and butter. Dating apps, nightgame and social circle game are the real bread and butter.

If I had to pick one for pure pulling, getting laid, nightgame is king and there is nothing better. Online is second if you have the right profile and are able to sift through it to find the horny girls who wanna fuck on the first date (trickier and can get pricy spending cash on dating apps)

Edited 1 hour ago by Lyubov

[LordFall]

21 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

If I had to pick one for pure pulling, getting laid, nightgame is king and there is nothing better. Online is second if you have the right profile and are able to sift through it to find the horny girls who wanna fuck on the first date (trickier and can get pricy spending cash on dating apps)

Nightgame is good for extroverts. Introverts should go for online dating undoubtedly. When I was in my fuckboy phase I would get laid every week from online dating. You get tinder platinum for $50, you 1-2 boosts at $5 each and drinks and you get laid consistently with almost mathematical precision for like $20 lol. Mankind was not supposed to have this power, its too powerful! 

They key is to have a pulling methodology in place. I would invite girls to have drinks by the lake and wow surprise I live on the lake and was we go to the liquor store to get drinks I would say wanna go back to my place and listen to music and chill and 80% would be down. Some dudes have weird online dating strategy where they meet the girl next to her place and then try to invite themselves over or meet halfway where there is no option to pull and that's just self-sabotage.

One of my ex clients told me this story where he was at the park drinking wine with a girl and hitting it off and she was into it and he tried to fuck her behind a bush and it almost worked but her logical brain took over and was like wtf is going on NO and the magic did not happen that night.

You should ideally have a place by yourself with mood lighting, a smooth sex music playlist ready to go and good smells to make her relaxed and get her to escalate on you if anything. I had a messy af roommate that made our life a living hell but when he would have a date he would clean the whole apartment spotless each time, it worked. 

Key to online dating is to have the right archetype in your pictures, you can do it well even if you're not that good looking. Like have bdsm handcuffs, motorcycle, cigar, nice place overlooking the city, nice dress shirt, shirtless if you're fit, etc. If a chick is looking to get fucked she should find your profile easily in the sea of boring dudes. 

This 5 part tinder guide is a must read

https://killyourinnerloser.com/tinder-guide/

Edited 1 hour ago by LordFall

[Rishabh R]

@Emerald You're insights are great . I mean I fell into this trap of pickup or per say being a player in order to get a girlfriend. My main issue wasn't that I wanted a girlfriend but I was jealous of girls having relationships even though I am a man. This happened to me in college. I had a terrible dating life in college or say no dating life . My batchmates were going from relationship to relationship. Also the relationships of which I was envious none of them lasted. 

Also I failed to take this insight seriously that I was already vulnerable.

And yup a few girls were attracted to me. 

While performance based pickup can get you girls but honestly vulnerability can lose you girls who are not good for you.

Most guys choose the performance based pickup . But the latter is kernel of wisdom and fulfillment even though it can get you no dates or relationship.