Music Frame Discussion

[integral]

22 hours ago, Cred said:

Damn you guys need to chill with your "I'm sO anTi cOrrUptIon thAt I cAn'T liStEn to rAp".

I love rap and I don't really give much of a shit about what they rap about.

If I did not have rap a massive chunk of my happiness would be gone. There are just certain moods where rap works just perfectly to amplify that mood, feel alive and dance.

Also I think the movement of rappers is genius. The way they dance. It is both powerful, but also relaxed. It can be argued that this is a superior way of movement from the daoist perspective. You cannot have power without weakness. In the same way, you cannot have strength without relaxation.

You cannot tell me this isn't a form of true power. The power of not giving a damn.

If I didn't have metal, dubstep, rap, I would be significantly less powerful.

I think you're removing the red values from the rap which is wise and not identifying with its values.

Your using rap's nervous system state, that loose, confident, don't-give-a-fuck physicality, as a tool.

Edited Sunday at 12:45 PM by integral

[integral]

Quote

This is the map (incomplete)
 

Layer 1: Nervous system state. This is the raw physiological effect — what the music does to your body regardless of what the lyrics say or what culture surrounds it. Rap puts you in a loose, confident, rhythmically grounded state. Metal puts you in high-arousal aggressive activation. Leo's chill house puts you in a calm, spacious, gently emotional drift. This is what Cred was isolating when he said he doesn't care about lyrics — he wants the body state.

Layer 2: The reality frame / fantasy. (Metaphysics) This is the deepest and most interesting one. Once the music has you in a specific nervous system state, it's essentially showing you how reality could feel. And you're choosing to inhabit that version. Disney / John Williams puts you in a state of childlike wonder where the world is grand, heroic, meaningful, and safe — reality is an adventure with a happy ending. Metal puts you in a state where reality is intense, overwhelming, raw, and you're powerful enough to face it head-on. Leo's music puts you in a state where reality is beautiful, impermanent, and gently dissolving — mono no aware.

Layer 3: Culture and identity. This is the most visible layer. Rap has a whole lifestyle, aesthetic, fashion, attitude attached to it. Country has one. Metal has one. When people say "I'm a metalhead" or someone's whole personality is hip-hop, they're living in this layer. It's tribal. It's who you are in the social world.

Layer 4: Temporal orientation. Music places you in a specific relationship with time. Nostalgic music pulls you backward — you're living in what was. Hype music and EDM drops slam you into the immediate present — there's only now. Epic orchestral stuff like John Williams pulls you forward into what's coming, what's possible. Leo's music sits in a strange place where time feels like it's slowly passing through you — present tense but with awareness of fading. Your relationship with time completely changes depending on what you're listening to, and most people don't notice they're being repositioned.

Layer 5: Social orientation. Music implicitly tells you who you are relative to other people. Rap often positions you as above — dominant, untouchable. Sad indie music positions you as alone and feeling deeply. Anthemic rock positions you as part of a collective — arms in the air together. Leo's atmospheric stuff positions you as a solitary observer watching beauty unfold. Worship music positions you as small before something vast. This isn't about the culture layer — it's about where the music places you in relation to the world while you're inside it.

Layer 6: Relationship to control. Some music gives you the feeling of total command — tight beats, predictable structure, you know exactly what's coming. Other music surrenders control — jazz improvisation, experimental electronic, psychedelic music that dissolves structure. Metal is interesting because it's chaos that's actually extremely controlled. Leo's predictable harmonic structure that integral identified is a choice to stay in a controlled, safe dissolution — letting go but within guardrails.

Layer 7: What's sacred. This might be the deepest one. Every musical world has an implicit answer to what matters most. In blues it's suffering and endurance. In gospel it's transcendence and redemption. In punk it's authenticity and refusal. In Leo's music it's beauty and awareness. In metal it's power and confrontation with darkness. Whatever genre you're drawn to is quietly telling you what you hold as sacred.

Leo's extremely narrow musical range means he's choosing one very specific metaphysics of experience over and over.

Edited Sunday at 01:14 PM by integral

[Miguel1]

11 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I've listened to most of your playlists - for me your music taste is 'driving down the open road, windows down. Long, warm & balmy night, wind in my hair, thinking as the lights and roads weave by' vibes. Chill, linear, calm mellow thoughts that stretch the depths. Dunno how else to describe the vibe but this is closest for me. I really enjoy your music. My overall taste just has a huge span. 

Well articulated.

It’s good for a more chill, relaxed + upbeat vibe. Just enough energy to push contemplation but doesn’t distract it.

Edited Sunday at 01:15 PM by Miguel1

[Willie]

Genres?

https://m.soundcloud.com/willcomusic/literally-fuck-genres-harder

[Oppositionless]

Cosmic goth lmao 

Edited Sunday at 07:11 PM by Oppositionless

[Carl-Richard]

On 21.3.2026 at 7:20 AM, Cred said:

(remember: people with ADHD are insensitive to meaning and ideology).

I think "ADHD is insensitive to meaning" is an unfortunate and "insensitive" way to frame it.

I would instead frame it as ADHD jumps between meaning frameworks quickly (and therefore might spend less time "deepening" or expanding on any single framework). It's a difference in dynamics, not "ontology". Every mind is driven by meaning. It's just some are less "sequential" about it than others (did I just deconstruct your paradigm by saying that?).

For example, The Mars Volta, or any band that goes from low intensity to high intensity or switches textures or modes or ideas many times throughout a song (e.g. King Crimson, Opeth), are very ADHD-like, but they are also extremely structured and cohesive (i.e. meaningful). Any song ever made has structure and cohesion. It just happens at many levels simultaneously, and you can tweak each level more in the direction of ADHD or "autism".

I think you might define meaning differently than I do. How do you define it?

Edited 17 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[integral]

My preference is Christmas morning or new adventure or enormous quiet world.

I dont like mono no aware all that much. 

Look out the window and experience "there's a hidden magical world and you're about to be invited in.". Notice how hard it is if you dont like that frame... or the resistance can be towards the culture and group of people who like this music.

Music preference is a resistance game and the frame you want to have. 
 

@Carl-Richard when listening to music what is your preferred frame and fantasy? Or is it that you're having a completely separate experience from what the music is trying to dictate for example in heavy metal the experience would be something like 

Quote

Metal: Aliveness at full volume, physical transcendence, intricate architecture, emotional honesty without politeness, catharsis, empowerment, controlled precision disguised as chaos, embodied power, release, sublime overwhelm, beauty through intensity, sacred rage, joyful ferocity, communion with something primal -ai

 

Edited 17 hours ago by integral

[Carl-Richard]

33 minutes ago, integral said:

@Carl-Richard when listening to music what is your preferred frame and fantasy? Or is it that you're having a completely separate experience from what the music is trying to dictate for example in heavy metal the experience would be something like 

(Damn what a nice t-shirt referring to Enlightenment).

More seriously, I don't think I think of music in this way (I don't "think" much of music, other than the music itself). I just listen to the music while looking like in the picture. What I think of music is mostly found in my journal:

 

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

The history of metal has essentially been the purest form of expression of testosterone. "How can we make this sound even heavier, even faster, even uglier, even more evil, even more monstrous and terrifying?"

Rock -> hard rock -> heavy metal -> speed metal / power metal -> thrash metal -> technical thrash metal -> death metal -> technical death metal / brutal death metal / black metal / grindcore / djent -> goregrind / pornogrind (🤣)

 

Sometimes the song title matches a lot with the song:

 

It makes me think of a monstrous massive thing (turns out the lyrics is actually about a city, I didn't know that before now 🙂).

Edited 16 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[integral]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

(Damn what a nice t-shirt referring to Enlightenment).

More seriously, I don't think I think of music in this way (I don't "think" much of music, other than the music itself). I just listen to the music while looking like in the picture. What I think of music is mostly found in my journal:

 

LMFAO I mean, if you're serious about that face 😂 the question I have is why are you attracted to that? HAHA

 

Quote

 

Sometimes the song title matches a lot with the song:

 

It makes me think of a monstrous massive thing (turns out the lyrics is actually about a city, I didn't know that before now 🙂).

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at like what are you fantasizing about when you listen to heavy metal what is the nervous system stimulation and this is a preference you're experiencing that is going to be specific to you and we know most people don't have this preference.

The preference doesn't just come out of nowhere clearly you're highly attracted to one frame and then you want to consume that frame occasionally when you feel like you're in the mood.

[Carl-Richard]

25 minutes ago, integral said:

LMFAO I mean, if you're serious about that face 😂 the question I have is why are you attracted to that? HAHA

Attracted? It just happens.

Look:

🙂

 

25 minutes ago, integral said:

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at like what are you fantasizing about when you listen to heavy metal what is the nervous system stimulation and this is a preference you're experiencing that is going to be specific to you and we know most people don't have this preference.

The preference doesn't just come out of nowhere clearly you're highly attracted to one frame and then you want to consume that frame occasionally when you feel like you're in the mood.

It's not about the frame though. It's about the music. It's not like "how do I want to feel today; ah I'll pick this song". It's more like "music - ah, this song". Maybe there is a "I want to feel this way" in the middle there between "music" and "this song", but it's "music" that comes first. Very often I want to just listen to a guitar solo in a particular song because it's that cool, and a guitar solo is sometimes less "vibe" and more "notes, harmony, melody, structure, surprise, angularity, beauty", i.e. music.

Edited 15 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Heh heh Carl! Is this your spirit animal?

I hope this is what it's like into enlightenment 🥹🥹🥹

[Natasha Tori Maru]

NGL though it looks like he's busting the hardest nut

Edited 14 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[integral]

11 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Attracted? It just happens.

Look:

🙂

 

It's not about the frame though. It's about the music. It's not like "how do I want to feel today; ah I'll pick this song". It's more like "music - ah, this song". Maybe there is a "I want to feel this way" in the middle there between "music" and "this song", but it's "music" that comes first. Very often I want to just listen to a guitar solo in a particular song because it's that cool, and a guitar solo is sometimes less "vibe" and more "notes, harmony, melody, structure, surprise, angularity, beauty", i.e. music.

Yeah, the process is you'll listen to some music and you know what you like and what you don't like and which you wanna listen to. "preference".

But a preference is a frame that a person is addicted to and they want to reexperience over and over.

The music of heavy metal is one specific frame and emotion so if you keep wanting to listen to that then clearly that's the thing youre attracted to unconsciously right?

Leo's music is mostly mono no aware frame. Were you dissolve into the beautify of life with a bit of longing. And then he's hyper fixated on only listening to that.

So a preference is a specific experience that person wants to have unconsciously, music is not just random Preferences like each piece of music is a completely different framing and experience.

[Human Mint]

On 3/22/2026 at 9:45 AM, integral said:

I think you're removing the red values from the rap which is wise and not identifying with its values.

Your using rap's nervous system state, that loose, confident, don't-give-a-fuck physicality, as a tool.

This reads like one of those nerdy sycophantic ai answers

13 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Sometimes the song title matches a lot with the song:

 

It makes me think of a monstrous massive thing (turns out the lyrics is actually about a city, I didn't know that before now 🙂).

I saw them live last year. I could not stop nodding my head to the music. I never thought I would end up enjoying that kind of music. My signature is like a Meshuggah lyric.

Edited 3 hours ago by Human Mint

[Cred]

15 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I think you might define meaning differently than I do. How do you define it?

you just made me realize something very important. Yes I used the word meaning differently than you and I used it wrong and this is important to me.

In an earlier version of my theory, I said that ADHD means being insensitive to symbol. I was not quite happy with symbol so I abstracted it down to meaning. Eventually, I realized that ADHD is actually about non-commitment. It's about not sticking to your choice. The way I'm phrasing it now in an abstract way is with "point". So having ADHD is non-point being which is diffusion-being. so people with ADHD are comfortable with not making a choice.

Thinking back, I realize that my mistake was that symbol=meaning-reflecting-point and I mistook meaning to be fundamental to ADHD and not point (reflection is HSP). 

In a nutshell I agree with you completely and thank you a lot for making me realize I had a wrong understanding of meaning. Meaning seems to be way more broad than I thought it seems to be that what which allows for reaonance. Wait this means I'm not a nihilist anymore. Also It resolves conflict between my model and the field of sense theory which is huge.

I need to integrate my new understanding of meaning asap.

Edit: I think it's field! Field=meaning. I was missing a non-physicalist term for field. Damn that is very satisfying. Especially since this field=meaning ontology exists and is respected (fields of sense). Also the guy who came up with it happens to teach in my city.

Edited 2 hours ago by Cred

[integral]

32 minutes ago, Human Mint said:

This reads like one of those nerdy sycophantic ai answers

I was heavily using AI to analyze everything and makes sense of why people had music preferences. I was trying to figure out why are people so grotesquely disgusted by other music genres LMAO

So my writing naturally took from some of the stuff I was reading. But I wrote in my own words overall lol

Leo's sonic palette and identity 😂

[Human Mint]

57 minutes ago, integral said:

I was heavily using AI to analyze everything and makes sense of why people had music preferences. I was trying to figure out why are people so grotesquely disgusted by other music genres LMAO

So my writing naturally took from some of the stuff I was reading. But I wrote in my own words overall lol

Leo's sonic palette and identity 😂

Makes sense. AI side effects at play haha

[Human Mint]

Some jazzy stuff is also very good for contemplation mood. Something like Pat Metheny. For me is that + walking these days. I can enter into an auto-critic cycle with a good head space plus feels like walking in a movie.

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Cred said:

I need to integrate my new understanding of meaning asap.

Meaning (in life) can be described by significance, purpose, coherence, mattering. But I think it extends metaphysically as well. They all boil down to how our cognition is structured and how our survival occurs at even a biological level.

Without significance, nothing has innate value (nothing has true quality or qualia, it's only just means to an end, an end which has no ground but another mean, which feels empty in itself; any endevor must inevitably point to something truly valueable, something truly real, to feel meaningful).

Purpose is means to an end, and it creates impetus, telos, movement. Organisms that move are very clear expressions of this form of meaning. If you're an organism that moves but with no purpose, you will struggle to know where to move and your movement will be inhibited and you will feel like you're not "going anywhere"; the moving organism needs to move to be truly alive.

Coherence means that the "movement" (be it abstract in the realm of mind or concretely in the realm of physical movement) makes sense, it coheres to an environment, it coheres to a set of conditions, it follows logically.

Mattering is simply do all of these things transcend merely my own self in their value, do they matter to something bigger than myself (e.g. my species in terms of biological reproduction or simply more abstractly in terms of the collective survival of the species)?

 

 

Edited 10 minutes ago by Carl-Richard