Conservative activist, Charlie Kirk, has been shot and killed at University

[nerdspeak]

I agree propaganda of the deed doesn’t work. But this murder was not directed by any kind of “left” organization. So, yelling at the “left” is sort of pointless. 

if there was some kind of underground party directing this murder, then we could talk about this as political violence and discuss how it’s an ineffective strategy, even if you’re a revolutionary. 

but there wasn’t…it was just a random dude.  

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Over the last few days major MAGA influencers have called for the elimination of the entire Democrat party and the left.

I'm tired of this gaslighting. MAGA is fascistic in its psychology and ambitions, even if they aren't exactly WW2 Nazis. They firmly believe the left is evil and they will try to eliminate it if given the chance. This not a hypothetical.

Fascism with American characteristics as I outlined in my previous comment.

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Seems like the shooter could really be a far-right 4chan groyper. Wow.

https://youtu.be/pRBk4OZgzqg?si=L1m7YpaMH5V94FV2

But why..what caused the rise of millennial and Gen Y neo-nazis? Why weren't there as many Gen X neo-nazis? Perhaps because liberal democracy’s contradictions hadn’t yet unraveled - because the conditions that made it viable (which are a narrow set of conditions) were still intact (wealth + cohesion).

Prosperity and the future promise of it (social contract) cushioned the conditions for Gen X to exist in a sweet spot that assumed the universal sustainability of liberal democracy itself.  Relative prosperity, equality and cohesion existed thanks to geopolitical stability (unipolar order), shared identity of ''we'' as Americans, wealth and the hopes of achieving it ie the American dream.

Millenials and Gen X'rs radicalized because those conditions started to crumble (social contract ending) - 9/11, wars on terror, 08 financial crash, de-industrialization, multi-polarity knocking at the uni-polar hegemons world order. The result is populism, polarization and extremism beginning to surface on both ends (antifa, groypers etc) and now at their culmination.

There's no longer a shared ''we'' or a transcendent identity to exist as a limited identity within - there is now only identity politics itself. A fight for ''we'' and identity. Identity politics took off in the 2000's because prosperity + empire could no longer subsidize cohesion ie conditions for it, the politics followed. Minority rights and protections of identities started much earlier but still existed within a larger “we”. That gave space for new identities to be recognized within the system, not against or outside of it.

The fact that identity politics is even a thing is indicative that it is a child of liberal democracy’s contradictions. Outside the West there is still a shared larger ''we'' people exist within - religious, civilization, national. Liberalism is trying to liberate people from all of it. If all identities are just limited constructs, at some point people question the civic and national identity that makes liberalism work in the first place - via some cohesive glue. Liberalism starts to liberate people from liberalism itself eventually.

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

I wanted to make a post how I could blame the fracturing and radicalisation on social media and the internet 

but then i thought it’s not a good point. Basically most things now are amplified by social media and internet.

Charlie Kirks career wouldn’t have existed without social media etc.

Your point is a good point though - everything I wrote just above highlighting the dynamics of the breakdown - are only amplified by social media. Social media creates echo chambers and parallel realities that amplify the tribalism. Liberalism simultaneously uproots people from their ''limited and backward identities'' (which is noble) but doesn't realize the difficulty or development required for people to place themselves in a transcendent universal identity (the naive part). They then go hunting for belonging to some identity or sub-group which social media provides a buffet for. Without rootedness or cohesion people reach for extremes to feel rooted and cohesive again.

Liberalism universalizes outward in its geopolitics and foreign policy  (everyone must adopt liberal frameworks, pre-text for empire), whilst fragmenting inwards (the sacredness of individual expression that multiplies identities and differences). Social media then is the perfect tech embodiment of liberal democracy’s paradox: promises universal connection but delivers tribal fragmentation the same way liberal democracy promises universal belonging but splinters belonging into identity politics.

The 90s were the last decade when the liberal order still “worked” for those of us in the West (myself included) - universalizing ideals + relative cohesion + prosperity + US or Western dominance. The good old days - nostalgic blockbuster feel good type shit. It felt like liberal democracy had finally solved history’s problems post cold war - but they were conditions masking the contradictions underneath that were yet to unravel when those conditions cease to exist - like today.

P.S I’m not saying I have the solution - I’m simply sharing what I think is the crux of the problem facing much of the West today. A thesis in progress.

People are searching for solutions. The rights is crude, the lefts is simplistic and naive. Both fail because they operate within the same paradigm that created the problem.

The right want to double down on differences within a limited tribal identity of nation, religion, civilization (particularism). The left want to champion all differences (micro identities - pronoun gang) whilst simultaneously dissolving all those differences into a blob of universal oneness (universalism).

 

Edited Saturday at 12:08 PM by zazen
Let me cook

[Joel3102]

Wild debate. Destiny has been pretty ballsy on this, not capitulating. He reckons it’s a prisoners dilemma where MAGA are on the destruction path, and there’s no point Dems endlessly denouncing violence whilst the right is on a war path constantly upping the insane rhetoric

[Leo Gura]

Destiny is strong on not allowing MAGA to gaslight us more and more. He doesn't allow them to hog the Overton Window. Respect to him for that.

MAGA cries for empathy they never had any themselves. Pure hypocrites.

[Hatfort]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Seems like the shooter could really be a far-right 4chan groyper. Wow.

4chan is truly a cesspool that needs to be shut down. Like half of all mass shooters originate from there.

Very clarifying.

Seems that Tyler Robinson wasn't a leftist, but more to the right on the spectrum than Charlie Kirk, more in line with proud white nationalists like Nick Fuentes. Grew up in a MAGA family, with a fixation on weapons, and was taught to use them since he was a child. The right-wingers who wanted to go to war against the left, now they shut up. They don't want to go to war against the so-called Groypers, very consistent, as they usually are.

Charlie Kirk, I'm sorry he was killed, but I'm going to mention that he himself said that a number of deaths per year was a worthy price to pay to protect the Second Amendment and the right to bear arms. Not even capable of conceding an inch on reasonable gun control measures. Now he is one of these numbers, he paid that price in person. 

[Joel3102]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Destiny is strong on not allowing MAGA to gaslight us more and more. He doesn't allow them to hog the Overton Window. Respect to him for that.

MAGA cries for empathy they never had any themselves. Pure hypocrites.

The right in America somehow has just been so good at controlling the narratives. Dems are always playing defence, the dynamic has to shift so I guess he’s playing a small part there.

The right in Australia recently got fucking historically trounced at the election, partly due to our distaste of American style right wing culture wars. Quite fascinating how different the dynamic can be.

Edited Saturday at 12:42 PM by Joel3102

[PurpleTree]

52 minutes ago, zazen said:

The 90s were the last decade when the liberal order still “worked” for those of us in the West (myself included) - universalizing ideals + relative cohesion + prosperity + US or Western dominance. The good old days - nostalgic blockbuster feel good type shit. It felt like liberal democracy had finally solved history’s problems post cold war - but they were conditions masking the contradictions underneath that were yet to unravel when those conditions cease to exist - like today.

A lot of that stuff were just ideals it was never full reality. Democracy and so on.

Yesterday i went on a walking tour in a historic french cityand the tour guide talked about France‘s slogan.

 

Liberté (Liberty): Freedom from oppression, the right to act and think independently.

Égalité (Equality): Equal rights and treatment under the law, regardless of class, race, or religion.

Fraternité (Fraternity): Brotherhood, solidarity, and unity among citizens.

which i think is an awesome idea. But it’s not reality. It’s a higher ideal to aspire to and try to reach.

[Inliytened1]

5 hours ago, Staples said:

Don't whitewash how much hate and bigotry he spread by diminishing it as 'speaking his mind'.

He damaged people with his words. His words were not harmless.

Saying 'some gun deaths are necessary' in front of an audience of millions is not a harmless thing to say.

I don't disagree with that.

[Elliott]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Seems like the shooter could really be a far-right 4chan groyper. Wow.

4chan is truly a cesspool that needs to be shut down. Like half of all mass shooters originate from there.

I have not watched this video, but Nick Fuentes went after Kirk just last month.

[Apparition of Jack]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Seems like the shooter could really be a far-right 4chan groyper. Wow.

4chan is truly a cesspool that needs to be shut down. Like half of all mass shooters originate from there.

I fucking told you Leo. I warned you of the threat of the extreme right and you brushed me off as “not being committed to the truth.”

Well “the truth” just shot Charlie Kirk through the jugular for not being hateful to Jews and blacks enough. 

Fascism is an ideological cancer. It’s pure brainrot. It’s a suicide cult, and a pure corrosive force on democratic politics.

There is no “debating” or “reasoning” your way out of it. You kill it in its crib, because otherwise things like this happen. 

And Trump has coddled them the entire time. When I say “Trump is a fascist”, it’s because he’s a fascist - he courts the Nick Fuentes and Stephen Millers and Steve Bannons of the world to hold onto power. It doesn’t matter if he, personally, doesn’t hate black people as much as they do. The fact that hes willing to use them in the first place is enough to prove he’s compromised.

He has to go.

[Human Mint]

1 hour ago, Terell Kirby said:

Wise liberals, leftist and progressives will clearly see Charlie Kirk’s murder as a blow to the very ideals they stand for, and a regression of democratic and liberal ideals.

Bernie Sanders take on this is quite good: 

He's too old for being a president is what I think. The stress of taking office would harm any good views he has.

[Recursoinominado]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Over the last few days major MAGA influencers have called for the elimination of the entire Democrat party and the left.

I'm tired of this gaslighting. MAGA is fascistic in its psychology and ambitions, even if they aren't exactly WW2 Nazis. They firmly believe the left is evil and they will try to eliminate it if given the chance. This not a hypothetical.

Leo, please make a video on how to keep your sanity while following politics nowadays... I have seen a huge shift and radicalization from the right from this event. I follow many of them on social media to measure the temperature and to take a peek into their epistemic bubble, and in the last few days, things seem to have gone to a new level of hate and gaslight toward the left, and i am talking about this IN BRAZIL. Many huge right-wing figures have made extreme takes on this event, and they are calling for total war on the left, calling us the worst things you can imagine. 

This is madness! Their worldview is completely insane, and they feel they are completely justified in demonizing the left. Sometimes i understand why many people prefer to stay completely oblivious to politics and just live their lives. 

I am feeling pretty hopeless about our situation. 

[Inliytened1]

5 hours ago, zazen said:

The classic definition of facism and communist don’t cleanly map onto what’s happening today if we only use their worst historical examples as barometers. It’s like how Zionists will say genocide isn’t occurring because it doesn’t match the Holocaust or Rwanda like a carbon copy.

Theirs a danger in using definitions too loosely  - because it’s premature, demonizing and polarizing. But then again -  there’s a preventive logic in broadly defining something as a danger in order to stop it in its tracks.

 

If the classic definitions don't adequately fit the current government then there is no "then again" or anything to stop in its tracks.  

5 hours ago, zazen said:

 

People call something “fascist” or “genocidal” early on not because it resembles Mussolini’s Italy or Rwandas genocide but because they fear it could harden into that if left unchecked.

 

 

This is problematic and we are seeing it play out here.  With violence.

Edited Saturday at 01:11 PM by Inliytened1

[Inliytened1]

9 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

I fucking told you Leo. I warned you of the threat of the extreme right and you brushed me off as “not being committed to the truth.”

Well “the truth” just shot Charlie Kirk through the jugular for not being hateful to Jews and blacks enough. 

Fascism is an ideological cancer. It’s pure brainrot. It’s a suicide cult, and a pure corrosive force on democratic politics.

There is no “debating” or “reasoning” your way out of it. You kill it in its crib, because otherwise things like this happen. 

And Trump has coddled them the entire time. When I say “Trump is a fascist”, it’s because he’s a fascist - he courts the Nick Fuentes and Stephen Millers and Steve Bannons of the world to hold onto power. It doesn’t matter if he, personally, doesn’t hate black people as much as they do. The fact that hes willing to use them in the first place is enough to prove he’s compromised.

He has to go.

Well bro your boy just really damaged your whole persona because now the left look like the demons not the other way around.  All this fear of the devil manifesting manifested the devil in the worst way.  The right is not to blame for this- which is gaslighting.   Nice try though.  

[Elliott]

"Fascism is generally defined as a political movement that embraces far-right nationalism and the forceful suppression of any opposition,"

It adequately fits

 

 

Edited Saturday at 01:18 PM by Elliott

[Elliott]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

Well bro your boy just really damaged your whole persona because now the left look like the demons not the other way around.  All this fear of the devil manifesting manifested the devil in the worst way.  The right is not to blame for this- which is gaslighting.   Nice try though.  

No, this is gaslighting. It was one mentally unstable person.

[Inliytened1]

2 minutes ago, Elliott said:

"Fascism is generally defined as a political movement that embraces far-right nationalism and the forceful suppression of any opposition,"

It adequately fits

Where has the US engaged in forceful opposition? If you are saying it could happen when you are speculating.  

Edited Saturday at 01:19 PM by Inliytened1

[Elliott]

8 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Where has the US engaged in forceful opposition? If you saying it could happen when you are speculating.  

Keyword;"embraces"; "accept or support (a belief, theory, or change) willingly and enthusiastically:"

"Trump pardons some 1,500 Jan. 6 rioters, commutes 14 sentences : NPR

Jan 21, 2025 · President Trump issued pardons for some 1,500 defendants who participated in the siege on the U.S. Capitol four years ago, including the leader"

Edited Saturday at 01:26 PM by Elliott

[Apparition of Jack]

3 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Well bro your boy just really damaged your whole persona because now the left look like the demons not the other way around.  All this fear of the devil manifesting manifested the devil in the worst way.  The right is not to blame for this- which is gaslighting.   Nice try though.  

How is it the left’s fault that the shooter turned out to be a Nick Fuentes groyper? Charlie was killed for not being right-wing ENOUGH, not for being too right-wing. 
 

EDIT: Remember when a groyper tried to kill Trump in 2024? Or groypers attacked the Capitol and got nine people killed? Or when groypers killed a protestor in Charlottesville? Or when a groyper killed dozens of innocent mosque worshippers in Christchurch?

Nazism, by definition, is the lethal implementation of white supremacy. That’s why they committed the Holocaust. That’s why they kill political opponents and minorities today. It’s a death cult in its psychology to the core. It’s demon worship in its most obvious and vile essence.

Edited Saturday at 01:22 PM by Apparition of Jack

[Inliytened1]

9 minutes ago, Elliott said:

No, this is gaslighting. It was one mentally unstable person.

I don't agree with what Kirk was pushing at all but over time as Leo said this could emotionally damage someone- then compound this with what the left is pushing and you get what we have here.  Both sides are to blame however I'm specifically disputing the left's viewpoint on the current government.  Its guys like @zazen and others that invoke fear that something like a Nazi Germany could and is the process of happening here when it's not.  But that is what is being portrayed - and being an ally of Israel feeds into it when they call what Israel is doing a genocide.   Its an easy way for them to scream fascism.

Edited Saturday at 01:27 PM by Inliytened1