Is the US now at war with Iran? (US vs. Iran Discussion)

[Breakingthewall]

21 minutes ago, GroovyGuru said:

@Inliytened1 Your response does not make any sense to me. Why would Iran not just rebuild what ever was destroyed and continue enriching uranium? I would bet they have additional facilities and resources that are not even known. There are satellite images of tons of cargo trucks at the Fordow facility before the strike. Does anyone know where they moved everything? If they did nothing, that would just invite the US and Israel to continue behaving this way until they get what they want. So I just don't understand or agree with your logic about Iran not working to either build or purchase a weapon.

What would Iran achieve with the atomic bomb besides being destroyed? All the Iranian anti-Israel rhetoric is an excuse for the Ayatollahs' regime to maintain legitimacy and be able to oppress its people forever.

Iran has nothing to do; if Israel wants, it can leave the country without electricity, without oil, and without supplies in a week, plunging into absolute chaos. Iran knows this, but it plays on the fact that Israel won't do anything. It continues to pressure, finances terrorists, militias, all to establish itself as the Muslim hero against the Jewish devil, and thus maintain power, while it expands throughout Syria and elevates the Shiite branch above its hated Sunni enemies, that's the real goal

[Breakingthewall]

28 minutes ago, GroovyGuru said:

@Inliytened1 Your response does not make any sense to me. Why would Iran not just rebuild what ever was destroyed and continue enriching uranium? I would bet they have additional facilities and resources that are not even known. There are satellite images of tons of cargo trucks at the Fordow facility before the strike. Does anyone know where they moved everything? If they did nothing, that would just invite the US and Israel to continue behaving this way until they get what they want. So I just don't understand or agree with your logic about Iran not working to either build or purchase a weapon.

What would Iran achieve with the atomic bomb besides being destroyed? All the Iranian anti-Israel rhetoric is an excuse for the Ayatollahs' regime to maintain legitimacy and be able to oppress its people forever.

Iran has nothing to do; if Israel wants, it can leave the country without electricity, without oil, and without supplies in a week, plunging into absolute chaos. Iran knows this, but it plays on the fact that Israel won't do anything. It continues to pressure, finances terrorists, militias, all to establish itself as the Muslim hero against the Jewish devil, and thus maintain power, while it expands throughout Syria and elevates the Shiite branch above its hated Sunni enemies, that's the real goal

[GroovyGuru]

8 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

What would Iran achieve with the atomic bomb besides being destroyed? All the Iranian anti-Israel rhetoric is an excuse for the Ayatollahs' regime to maintain legitimacy and be able to oppress its people forever.

Iran has nothing to do; if Israel wants, it can leave the country without electricity, without oil, and without supplies in a week, plunging into absolute chaos. Iran knows this, but it plays on the fact that Israel won't do anything. It continues to pressure, finances terrorists, militias, all to establish itself as the Muslim hero against the Jewish devil, and thus maintain power, while it expands throughout Syria and elevates the Shiite branch above its hated Sunni enemies, that's the real goal

If Iran is so weak and easily destroyable then why doesn't Israel go in and destroy them once and for all? If Iran gets a bomb why would they be destroyed? Is there a country that you can point to in history that had nuclear weapons and was destroyed? I truly don't understand how you think "Iran has nothing to do". Are they going to sit on their hands and just politely wait for their regime to be toppled then?

[Breakingthewall]

4 minutes ago, GroovyGuru said:

If Iran is so weak and easily destroyable then why doesn't Israel go in and destroy them once and for all? If Iran gets a bomb why would they be destroyed? Is there a country that you can point to in history that had nuclear weapons and was destroyed? I truly don't understand how you think "Iran has nothing to do". Are they going to sit on their hands and just politely wait for their regime to be toppled then?

Why would Israel want to plunge Iran into chaos? It wouldn't gain anything; it's enough to nullify its military capability, parade fighter jets across its skies with total impunity, and demonstrate its power.

Furthermore, the fact that nullifying Iran's nuclear capability makes the rest of the Arab countries and Turkey, with whom it disputes Muslim leadership, the happiest. 

The real reason for the Israeli attack is first to legitimize friend Bibi, who guarantees himself another term, and second, that now Hezbollah is nullified and there is no fear of thousands of rockets being launched at them, which was a serious threat. Hezbollah had power. Now Israel is going to be legitimate in great part of the world, the fighters against the fanatics with nukes. Much better that the genocides of Gaza 

Edited Tuesday at 04:15 PM by Breakingthewall

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, GroovyGuru said:

@Inliytened1 Your response does not make any sense to me. Why would Iran not just rebuild what ever was destroyed and continue enriching uranium? I would bet they have additional facilities and resources that are not even known. There are satellite images of tons of cargo trucks at the Fordow facility before the strike. Does anyone know where they moved everything? If they did nothing, that would just invite the US and Israel to continue behaving this way until they get what they want. So I just don't understand or agree with your logic about Iran not working to either build or purchase a weapon.

It's not going to deter Iran if that's what you're saying.  But it could make things more difficult for them now that there is an active aim to prevent them.  

Edited Tuesday at 04:35 PM by Inliytened1

[GroovyGuru]

17 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Why would Israel want to plunge Iran into chaos? It wouldn't gain anything; it's enough to nullify its military capability, parade fighter jets across its skies with total impunity, and demonstrate its power.

Furthermore, the fact that nullifying Iran's nuclear capability makes the rest of the Arab countries and Turkey, with whom it disputes Muslim leadership, the happiest. 

The real reason for the Israeli attack is first to legitimize friend Bibi, who guarantees himself another term, and second, that now Hezbollah is nullified and there is no fear of thousands of rockets being launched at them, which was a serious threat. Hezbollah had power. Now Israel is going to be legitimate in great part of the world, the fighters against the fanatics with nukes. Much better that the genocides of Gaza 

I appreciate your thoughts but I just do not agree that Iran's military capability or its nuclear capability is nullified. I also don't agree with your characterization of Iran being fanatics (I take this comment as you meaning they are irrational). Iran can continue launching missiles at Israel every single day if they choose to, and soon Israel would be able to do nothing about it. Its cities can be destroyed and its people can continue going sleepless and running to bunkers every night. Not sure how this equates to being militarily nullified. Not to mention the ease at which Iran can hit US assets in the region. Them telegraphing the attack in Qatar to Washington demonstrates that they are in fact rational actors who can cause harm on their enemy but prefer non-violence because they know that they will be punished harder. Bottom line is that I don't see anything stopping them from enriching uranium, and the regime is fully in tact. The situation is fundamentally the same as no strategic objectives from any parties involved were accomplished.

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, GroovyGuru said:

I appreciate your thoughts but I just do not agree that Iran's military capability or its nuclear capability is nullified. I also don't agree with your characterization of Iran being fanatics (I take this comment as you meaning they are irrational). Iran can continue launching missiles at Israel every single day if they choose to, and soon Israel would be able to do nothing about it. Its cities can be destroyed and its people can continue going sleepless and running to bunkers every night. Not sure how this equates to being militarily nullified. Not to mention the ease at which Iran can hit US assets in the region. Them telegraphing the attack in Qatar to Washington demonstrates that they are in fact rational actors who can cause harm on their enemy but prefer non-violence because they know that they will be punished harder. Bottom line is that I don't see anything stopping them from enriching uranium, and the regime is fully in tact. The situation is fundamentally the same as no strategic objectives from any parties involved were accomplished.

I agree with this.  This whole endeavor does very little.  But it can set Iran back a bit.   Thats the real goal.  Of course you can start again but when someone erases your scrap board that can be quite frustrating.   The US is trying to get under their skin.  Don't know if it will work..but that's the extent of this 

 

[PurpleTree]

Just now, Inliytened1 said:

I agree with this.  This whole endeavor does very little.  But it can set Iran back a bit.   Thats the real goal.  Of course you can start again but when someone erases your scrap board that can be quite frustrating.   The US is trying to get under their skin.  Don't know if it will work..but that's the extent of this 

 

I think there were two main goals, one of them was to divert attention from Gaza. 

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, PurpleTree said:

I think there were two main goals, one of them was to divert attention from Gaza. 

Not enough attention in America for that to be warranted.   Sad but true.

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Not enough attention in America for that to be warranted.   Sad but true.

But also in America support for Israel is dropping. Just the main news channels are not really talking about it. Also ib Europe and the rest if the world. You can even see many people on the conservative side talking about stop supporting the Israel regime. Tucker, Candace, Theo von and many others. There was a big gaza protest in my city. Even some retired government people joined and it was barely in the news or not at all. And there many people protesting against bibi in Israel. But this “war” kind of rallied Israelis behind the govt again.

[Inliytened1]

7 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

But also in America support for Israel is dropping. Just the main news channels are not really talking about it. Also ib Europe and the rest if the world. You can even see many people on the conservative side talking about stop supporting the Israel regime. Tucker, Candace, Theo von and many others. There was a big gaza protest in my city. Even some retired government people joined and it was barely in the news or not at all. And there many people protesting against bibi in Israel. But this “war” kind of rallied Israelis behind the govt again.

Let's ask @Nivsch what he thinks

  You still there or holed up in a bunker?

Edited Tuesday at 05:05 PM by Inliytened1

[PurpleTree]

18 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Let's ask @Nivsch what he thinks

  You still there or holed up in a bunker?

Nivsch thinks that most of Europeans at the Eurovision Song Contest voted for Israel. So there’s that.

[Inliytened1]

9 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Nivsch thinks that most of Europeans at the Eurovision Song Contest voted for Israel. So there’s that.

Support for Israel is still strong in my estimation but that's because the US and Israel both have tyrants at the helm and it's basically a scramble for power and survival.   Iran and its forces arent going to be able to overcome that.  

Edited Tuesday at 05:35 PM by Inliytened1

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

Support for Israel is still strong in my estimation but that's because the US and Israel both have tyrants at the helm and it's basically a scramble for power and survival.   Iran and its forces can't overcome that.

Well sure. But basically all European and US news channels are pro Israel. And even with that support in the population is dropping quite rapidly imo. Could you havr imagined people like Candace speaking out like that a while ago?

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Well sure. But basically all European and US news channels are pro Israel. And even with that support in the population is dropping quite rapidly imo. Could you havr imagined people like Candace speaking out like that a while ago?

Only the most radical anti-war people are willing to cross Trump now. And crossing Trump isn't going to hurt them as much as it would have in the beginning.

Edited Tuesday at 05:41 PM by Inliytened1

[Lyubov]

Trump is mad about his cease fire. Israel dropped some more bombs then Trump dropped the f-bomb on camera… 

[zazen]

Great noticing 

[BlueOak]

I wonder how much Iran giving some of its missile stockpiles to Russia factored into this timing.

I agree that Israel has wanted this war for some time; ergo, America does also, as the Israeli lobby has a lot of pressure over the American government, along with their military-industrial complex, the Saudis, and oil lobbies. 

Regime change rarely works. Especially not with boots on the ground. So that means American troops in Iran next. The other strategic outcome is knocking down a BRICS ally, one specifically helping Russia in its aims.

*Also Trump is threatening nukes in answer to Russia communicating about Nukes to Iran. For me was the final line separating them, that he's now crossed over. America is officially run by exactly the same people as Russia, warmongering, dangerous lunatics that need to be stopped.

Edited Tuesday at 09:40 PM by BlueOak

[zazen]

@BlueOak Agree, boots on the ground would be a catastrophe. Irans one of the hardest geographies to penetrate - place is like a fortress.

The troops would get encircled like Kursk, and supply lines don’t exist by land which only leaves air drops that can be hit down by launchers from the mountains. And those are hard to spot in that terrain, similar to Afghanistan. That’s why Iraq and Syria are different (flat lands) and why hubris to take on Iran thinking they did those two next door is folly.

Yet, regime change remains the main aim. They can’t de-nuke the country which has the technical know how - knowledge can’t be bombed away - only intimidated to not act upon that knowledge. But that only cements the idea that must go for the nukes in order to deter. I think that’s why they choose regime change as the path. One that is in line with Western terms ie who doesn’t pursue nuclear and opens access to resources for western corps.

Even the operation name itself “rising lion” is in reference to Iran before the revolution where the lion was the national symbol during the Shahs who ruled - and who they want back in power.

Israel can only do a short intense fight with Iran - shock and awe style the way the US has been perfecting. If it becomes a war of attrition - Iran can bleed out Israel. The interceptors cost many times more than the missiles Iran fires - the math simply don’t math. Also, Israel is small and has a population not hardened to suffer the same way Iran does. Iranians can move around and away from urban centre being hit - way more space to move than Israelis can who go into bunkers. 

Any gaps or pressure points Israel has (economic-military) will of course be filled by the US or the West - but domestically the West don’t want to give up resources to a ethno apartheid state that’s ethnically cleansing others and has defied all kinds of norms - whether in international law or in their immoral treatment against Palestinians.

Americans don’t want to work two jobs and draw blood for a country they subsidise that has healthcare and gets yearly aid with little string attached - these conversations are circulating en mass and across political aisles now. The pressure is on.

Enjoying this professor going viral. Iv been saying for a while how asymmetric warfare is blunting the power of legacy military systems and empire itself. US couldn’t defeat the Houthis but think they can defeat Iran lol

If there is a pause between conflict I’m sure Iran will procure Russian/Chinese air defence systems to tighten their weak point which was made clear this round. They will also surely be going after a nuke now to deter a hot war in the future - compared to this which was like warm. A strong airforce would also be good but that takes time and training.

Edited 16 hours ago by zazen

[Rafael Thundercat]

And Trump is now losing his mind about Bibi and Putin.