Don't tell me that this insane approach actually works on girls

[Schizophonia]

21 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

Those women that chase end up getting left behind. I didn't say women don't chase but that's not what keeps a guy interested no matter who he is. He will just settle and take the bait while he eyes the true prize. You're taking about sex and/or money and status. I'm talking about what's in the make up, the feminine/masculine energy. I use the word prize loosely, but men are natural competitors and people compete for a prize.

Don't genderify your fear of not being enough or anything like that.

 

[Raze]

2 hours ago, aurum said:

This totally confuses the situation.

Both things are true:

1) Women are interested in attracting men

2) Women will filter and test men in that process

So there's no contradiction. It's part of the same strategy for women. And it's pointless to berate them about this, even if you don't like it. They are not going to stop filtering or testing men, nor should they. Stop wanting women to make things easy for you.

Right, but their desire to test is often subconscious so it expands in ways that are irrational and they just rationalize or defend it, which is how they make courting them more and more difficult.

2 hours ago, aurum said:

In reality, women give you indicators of interest. Smiling, laughing, attention, agreeing with your frame, physical touch, playing with their hair, turning their body towards you, and even just talking with you at all. If she's willing to just talk and be in your presence, that can be enough of a green light. Sometimes interest can be subtle. It's your job to recognize it.

If she's feeling really bold, she may even initiate or lead things herself. Or she might just tell you point-blank what she wants. Although I would not rely on that.

This is a good example of the issue. While this is true, you will also find just as many examples of women 

- purposefully making themselves unapproachable, even in situations where they like the guy, and bragging about this

- dismissing and deriding men for expecting to get signals from them or the idea they have to signal a man in any way

- getting upset at and deriding men for assuming their signals are interest when they aren’t, and even seeking to give him social or legal repercussions 

That is just one example of the layers of contradictions, and I can give you a dozen worse ones. This is how they make approaching and “chasing them” more and more difficult, yet they’ll only justify doing this while also complaining about the results.

Edited June 2 by Raze

[aurum]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

Right, but their desire to test is often subconscious so it expands in ways that are irrational and they just rationalize or defend it, which is how they make courting them more and more difficult.

Is it irrational or do you just not understand it?

1 hour ago, Raze said:

This is a good example of the issue. While this is true, you will also find just as many examples of women 

- purposefully making themselves unapproachable, even in situations where they like the guy, and bragging about this

- dismissing and deriding men for expecting to get signals from them or the idea they have to signal a man in any way

- getting upset at and deriding men for assuming their signals are interest when they aren’t, and even seeking to give him social or legal repercussions 

That is just one example of the layers of contradictions, and I can give you a dozen worse ones. This is how they make approaching and “chasing them” more and more difficult, yet they’ll only justify doing this while also complaining about the results.

None of that means women are making things as difficult as possible for you. You'd have to cherry-pick the most toxic behavior to believe that.

This kind of combative attitude is extremely toxic and partly why guys struggle to meet quality women.

Assume more of a collaborative frame.

Edited June 2 by aurum

[Raze]

21 minutes ago, aurum said:

Is it irrational or do you just not understand it?

It’s irrational in that it can conflict with their own interests 

22 minutes ago, aurum said:

None of that means women are making things as difficult as possible for you. You'd have to cherry-pick the most toxic behavior to believe that.

I’m not saying every woman is doing it on purpose, I’m saying generally as a collective they are driven to do that

23 minutes ago, aurum said:

This kind of combative attitude is extremely toxic and partly why guys struggle to meet quality women.

Assume more of a collaborative frame.

Nothing in my attitude is combative or toxic, I’m analyzing the situation, not giving dating advice.

Assuming a collaborative frame is self deluding yourself into a perspective more likely to work, doing that for socializing is fine, saying it should also be done to avoid looking at the wider situation objective isn’t.

[aurum]

6 minutes ago, Raze said:

It’s irrational in that it can conflict with their own interests 

No, because filtering men is in her interest. 

If she's interested in a guy, but then she tests him and he drops the ball, that's a win for her.

6 minutes ago, Raze said:

I’m not saying every woman is doing it on purpose, I’m saying generally as a collective they are driven to do that

It's still exaggerated.

Filtering and testing, yes.

Making things as hard as possible for you, no.

6 minutes ago, Raze said:

Nothing in my attitude is combative or toxic, I’m analyzing the situation, not giving dating advice. 

Assuming a collaborative frame is self deluding yourself into a perspective more likely to work, doing that for socializing is fine, saying it should also be done to avoid looking at the wider situation objective isn’t.

But is it more of a wider, objective analysis?

It comes off to me as pretty narrow and biased.

[Raze]

12 minutes ago, aurum said:

No, because filtering men is in her interest. 

If she's interested in a guy, but then she tests him and he drops the ball, that's a win for her.

You’re not getting my point. It’s irrational because the way they test can filter for men who have the traits they don’t want leaving them as their only options, and they’re doing it on a societal scale.

13 minutes ago, aurum said:

It's still exaggerated.

Filtering and testing, yes.

Making things as hard as possible for you, no.

The testing is just one symptom of a psychological phenomenon that is just one of the ways they are doing it when it shows up in other areas.

Its not really an exaggeration, the entire dating market has become extremely frustrating and toxic for many people partly for this reason.

14 minutes ago, aurum said:

But is it more of a wider, objective analysis?

It comes off to me as pretty narrow and biased.

You essentially just said I should ignore it all and assume everything is a collaboration and that women test men naturally so there must not be a problem,

That is narrow and biased, it’s not even acknowledging the wider problem which I’m saying this is part of the reason for.

[aurum]

8 minutes ago, Raze said:

You’re not getting my point. It’s irrational because the way they test can filter for men who have the traits they don’t want leaving them as their only options, and they’re doing it on a societal scale.

That's not a serious problem at scale.

Women's filtering is effective and works well the vast majority of time for her agenda.

Guys just want to assume they are not the problem.

8 minutes ago, Raze said:

The testing is just one symptom of a psychological phenomenon that is just one of the ways they are doing it when it shows up in other areas.

Like what other areas?

How else are they making it impossible for men? 

8 minutes ago, Raze said:

You essentially just said I should ignore it all and assume everything is a collaboration and that women test men naturally so there must not be a problem,

That is narrow and biased, it’s not even acknowledging the wider problem which I’m saying this is part of the reason for.

I acknowledge women can behave in toxic ways. You don't have to assume everything is a collaboration.

I'm trying to balance the perspective here.

Yes, women test men naturally. It's your job as a man to understand and accept this. This will actually make you less bitter towards women and likely improve your dating success as a byproduct.

[Raze]

29 minutes ago, aurum said:

That's not a serious problem at scale.

Women's filtering is effective and works well the vast majority of time for her agenda.

Guys just want to assume they are not the problem.

The amount of women who regularly complain about the men they date disproves this.

30 minutes ago, aurum said:

Like what other areas?

How else are they making it impossible for men? 

I already pointed out examples of contradictory standards, you just said none of that makes it “difficult”. The things I listed do, and I can point out many others in the same vein. But if you won’t even accept the example I gave is there is no point in pointing out the rest.

32 minutes ago, aurum said:

I acknowledge women can behave in toxic ways. You don't have to assume everything is a collaboration.

I'm trying to balance the perspective here.

Yes, women test men naturally. It's your job as a man to understand and accept this. This will actually make you less bitter towards women and likely improve your dating success as a byproduct.

That’s true for any individual person who wants to get better, but on a societal scale when their opinions on what the dating etiquette and climate are taken seriously while they also have free roam to date how they want plus all the complications of modern technology it among other behaviors results in them making it as hard as possible for men.

[Leo Gura]

18 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

Indian women even in the beaches wear full body covering swim suits. There is a lot of emphasis in India on looking respectable and decent to ensure dignity and authority , probably due to social conditioning.

It is an interesting observation that the less dignified the society (more rapists around) the more women must be "decent" (cover up).

[aurum]

9 minutes ago, Raze said:

The amount of women who regularly complain about the men they date disproves this.

It does not.

1) Filtering and testing does not guarantee your relationship will not have problems

2) Women complain because men fail tests, not because they are necessarily testing poorly

3) Things would be way worse if they didn't test and filter

9 minutes ago, Raze said:

I already pointed out examples of contradictory standards, you just said none of that makes it “difficult”. The things I listed do, and I can point out many others in the same vein. But if you won’t even accept the example I gave is there is no point in pointing out the rest.

Those examples were poor and not serious. I do not accept those as scalable problems, they are closer to cherry-picked incel ragebait.

So I suppose we are just in disagreement here.

9 minutes ago, Raze said:

That’s true for any individual person who wants to get better, but on a societal scale when their opinions on what the dating etiquette and climate are taken seriously while they also have free roam to date how they want plus all the complications of modern technology it among other behaviors results in them making it as hard as possible for men.

Modern dating has its unique challenges. But on the whole, I'd say it's easier than ever.

You could go out to a bar or nightclub if you live in a major city and get five different girls phone numbers tonight.

And the challenges that do exist are not because women are trying to make it as hard as possible for men. It's more social media addiction, technology isolation, ideological brain rot, financial struggles, etc.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It is an interesting observation that the less dignified the society (more rapists around) the more women must be "decent" (cover up).

Does Leo want to play? I think he wants to play 😈

1. Lack of societal dignity (dignity meaning weak rule of law, impunity, high sexual violence) leads to control over women?
2. 'Decency' is survival strategy, not moral virtue?
3. Societal failure is masked as cultural norm?

The truthiness must out

[Princess Arabia]

4 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Don't genderify your fear of not being enough or anything like that.

 

Not sure what you're talking about. I'm not enough and never will be. "Enough", in this case, suggests for someone else because I don't need to be enough for myself. There's an abundance of everything in life, why would i be fearful of not being enough. Enough of what and for whom. I'm not trying to be enough. There's always more for the ego to be had, that's a hopeless endeavor. People with a fear of not being enough are delusional.

Edited June 3 by Princess Arabia

[EternalForest]

4 hours ago, aurum said:

Is it irrational or do you just not understand it?

None of that means women are making things as difficult as possible for you. You'd have to cherry-pick the most toxic behavior to believe that.

This kind of combative attitude is extremely toxic and partly why guys struggle to meet quality women.

Assume more of a collaborative frame.

Kind of hard to have a collaborative frame when you get security called on you for approaching a girl.

[aurum]

6 minutes ago, EternalForest said:

Kind of hard to have a collaborative frame when you get security called on you for approaching a girl.

If you are getting security called on you, either you are doing something very wrong or you just had crazy bad luck.

That is not normal.

[Jacob Morres]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It is an interesting observation that the less dignified the society (more rapists around) the more women must be "decent" (cover up).

Isnt this better correlated with more conservative cultures, in general? I'm sure there are better explanations for women covering up than it being due to having more rapists

 

Edited June 3 by Jacob Morres

[Raze]

2 hours ago, aurum said:

It does not.

1) Filtering and testing does not guarantee your relationship will not have problems

2) Women complain because men fail tests, not because they are necessarily testing poorly

3) Things would be way worse if they didn't test and filter

The testing is itself often the problem, it is one reason why they end up with men use use them, have problems etc. 

The issue isn’t filtering, it’s how they filter. Then there is the issue of how their tests are contradictory to what they say. 
 

2 hours ago, aurum said:

Those examples were poor and not serious. I do not accept those as scalable problems, they are closer to cherry-picked incel ragebait.

So I suppose we are just in disagreement here.

Modern dating has its unique challenges. But on the whole, I'd say it's easier than ever.

You could go out to a bar or nightclub if you live in a major city and get five different girls phone numbers tonight.

And the challenges that do exist are not because women are trying to make it as hard as possible for men. It's more social media addiction, technology isolation, ideological brain rot, financial struggles, etc.

Again you keep looking at it from your individual perspective. I am talking about the wider society. Just because it doesn’t effect you personally doesn’t mean it isn’t causing issues across the spectrum. Also like I said, that’s just one example based on the signal example you brought up. There are really examples at every level of the courtship process at this point.

Right now half of young men have never even asked a woman out in person, the social etiquette and standards for behavior being confusing and contradictory absolutely cause scalable problems.

It being easy or not like it’s a game is not the problem, it’s about is it producing sustainable results. 

It isn’t. The average man is getting beaten down and not gaining the right skills, and the skills he does need to train have little to do with making him a better long term partner. Women are being manipulated and used and becoming bitter, we are headed for record single hood and childlessness and huge amounts of bitter people.

Edited June 3 by Raze

[aurum]

32 minutes ago, Raze said:

The testing is itself often the problem, it is one reason why they end up with men use use them, have problems etc. 

The issue isn’t filtering, it’s how they filter. Then there is the issue of how their tests are contradictory to what they say. 

The filtering is survival genius.

Neither men or even women generally recognize it, because few people are conscious of how survival plays their mind. 

You think it's malfunctioning or maladaptive, but it's not.

Which is not to say women don't still have problems in relationship. Obviously they do, and they can be extremely serious.

32 minutes ago, Raze said:

Again you keep looking at it from your individual perspective. I am talking about the wider society. Just because it doesn’t effect you personally doesn’t mean it isn’t causing issues across the spectrum

You can start with a wide view, but ultimately that doesn't tell you what you should do personally. You have to narrow it down to what you can be responsible for.

32 minutes ago, Raze said:

Right now half of young men have never even asked a woman out in person, the social etiquette and standards for behavior being confusing and contradictory absolutely cause scalable problems.

It being easy or not like it’s a game is not the problem, it’s about is it producing sustainable results. 

It isn’t. The average man is getting beaten down and not gaining the right skills, and the skills he does need to train have little to do with making him a better long term partner. Women are being manipulated and used and becoming bitter, we are headed for record single hood and childlessness and huge amounts of bitter people.

1) The average man has almost always gotten beaten down throughout history

2) We are not debating whether men are struggling. That much is obvious

3) You are talking about complex societal problems with many factors. These things are effecting everyone, it's not something women are doing to men.

[Raze]

12 minutes ago, aurum said:

The filtering is survival genius.

Neither men or even women generally recognize it, because few people are conscious of how survival plays their mind. 

You think it's malfunctioning or maladaptive, but it's not.

The things that our baseline instincts evolved to be attracted to =/= the best traits for long term relationships and societal stability today.

12 minutes ago, aurum said:

You can start with a wide view, but ultimately that doesn't tell you what you should do personally. You have to narrow it down to what you can be responsible for.

1) The average man has almost always gotten beaten down throughout history

2) We are not debating whether men are struggling. That much is obvious

3) You are talking about complex societal problems with many factors. These things are effecting everyone, it's not something women are doing to men.

Obviously there are many different factors, but women themselves play a massive role in it through the standards they set and the demands they make.

Today women are individually empowered to make their own choices & have far more influence over dating culture and etiquette than perhaps ever before. The idea that’s not a driver of the current situation is silly. 

Edited June 3 by Raze

[aurum]

1 minute ago, Raze said:

The things that our baseline instincts evolved to be attracted to =/= the best traits for long term relationships and societal stability today 

My guess is you want to believe that because you think women shouldn't be attracted to the men they are.

But maybe you're the one that is wrong. Maybe they should be attracted to exactly who they are attracted to.

1 minute ago, Raze said:

Obviously there are many different factors, but women themselves play a massive role in it through the standards they set.

The standards they set are mostly very reasonable.

1 minute ago, Raze said:

Today women are individually empowered to make their own choices & have far more influence over dating culture and etiquette than perhaps ever before. The idea that has no effect on the issues is silly. 

That's not the debate.

Of course women's empowerment has affected dating.

Overall, it has been a net-positive.

[Carl-Richard]

When I do this to Scandinavian women, they just run away