Humanity Has Failed

[Nivsch]

21 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Perhaps but leftists are still more honest about the causes of the war than most pro Israelis that seem to think this all started on October 7th

Shamless reduction of the horror of oct7 to "desperation" and "resistance". Nothing is more shamless than that. This is the far left.

Edited May 29 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Shamless reduction of the horror of oct7 to "desperation" and "resistance". Nothing is more shamless than that. This is the far left.

They say that is was a terrorist attack, that Hamas are terrorists and that it was wrong. I dont know what more you want them to say.

You can have a brutal immoral terrorist attack done by terrorists that has been fundamentally caused by oppression and bad policies of the other party 

Those two truths can be at the same time

That is what leftists say

I do not see romantization or glorification of Hamas from leftists which would indeed be shameful.

[zazen]

@Karmadhi

I’ve seen leftists call for the end of Israel or that there should simply be a one state solution. Whilst their morally justified to be outraged, they lack how power and geopolitics works.

I only jumped in on the moral discussion you guys were having as I find it engaging. But we shouldn’t be under any illusion that appeals to humanity are enough to move the needle.

Even with the tweet I shared earlier from Evan - he uses some charged language like that “Israel isn’t a country but a colony” which derails readers from his broader thesis as people get hung up on whether it’s a colony or not, and who controls who.

It isn’t a colony in the literal sense, though functions as one with some caveats. It’s more of a strategic client-state with settler-colonial roots, that functions in a semi-autonomous way. It does have its own internal ideaology and agency, but is ultimately held up by the US - almost like a franchise.

Or its like a married power couple. No one debates who controls who except that they both instrumentalize each other for their own aims, that just so happen to converge more often than not. Sometimes the “weaker” partner calls the shots because they know how to pull the right strings. 
 

 

Edited May 29 by zazen

[Karmadhi]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/27/former-israeli-pm-ehud-olmert-says-his-country-is-committing-war-crimes

When an ex Israeli PM says this, you know you lost the plot...

[Karmadhi]

16 minutes ago, zazen said:

I’ve seen leftists call for the end of Israel or that there should simply be a one state solution. Whilst their morally justified to be outraged, they lack how power and geopolitics works.

 

Those are just wishful thinking and radical leftists. I am talking about true leftists that want a two state.

[zazen]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen He overlooks another reason that isn't less significant, perhaps the most important one  which is shared values. Vmeme.

In their root, the individual right to nevigate his life as he wants to, free from coercion and authoritarian control.

His narrative that Israel is merely an arm controlled by the body is superficial, reductive and childish.

To say Israel is an arm doesn’t mean it lacks agency - it means its power is structurally enabled, funded, and shielded by the US to serve shared strategic interests.

Israel has its own will, agency, and objectives - but its ability to act on them with impunity is sustained by US capital, weapons, vetoes, and geopolitical legitimacy. Without the US Israels regional dominance and global standing would be constrained greatly.

But yeah, he does overlook that besides just geostrategic or financial gain, there is ideological support especially by Christian Zionists / evangelicals. That is where the contradictions and complexity emerge. Because their are different factions of elites with different interests that are diverging today more than they are aligning.

The Financial Industrial Complex (FIC) wants regional stability to attract capital and build markets. The Military-Industrial Complex (MIC) wants managed conflict to sustain defense spending. The Ideological-Religious Complex (IRC) wants prophecy - both secular (American exceptionalism) and religious (Evangelical end times).

The first two factions want profit, the last wants prophecy - divine and civilizational. The military and ideaological faction usually overlap - why not have profits and prophecy? They are otherwise known as neocons.

The financial elite faction are mostly indifferent to ideology as they chase profits. As Western returns shrink, they’re seeking higher returns and expansion into new markets ie the Global South which includes the Middle East. But to tap new markets, they need something the other factions often undermine which is stability. They have still profited off of instability, but perhaps peace may now promise more than chaos.

Through that lens it makes sense as to what’s going on. Otherwise many Zionists are asking how could Trump betray them by talking with Iran? This is why the negotiations currently taking place between Iran-US-Israel-Saudi. Trump seems to be representing the financial elite faction - Bibi represents the neocon faction, It’s basically old money (Neocons) vs new money (Blackrock).

That’s why: Larry Fink from Blackrock was alongside Trump in Saudi, Saudi and Blackrock have been working with each other for a while, the UAE and Kushners firm are aligned. When MBS of Saudi says Middle East will be the new Europe - those aren’t just baseless statements.

It kind of all seems to make slightly more sense when seen from this lens, with all the players and incentives involved. Trump of course sides with the more powerful and highest bidder which is the financial elite who have eclipsed the military elite in power and leverage since some time now.

 

Edited May 29 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Leftists describe things as they should be, not as they function

Leftist: *pulls down pants*

Her: Hey! I thought you said you have a footlong?

Leftist: *proudly* I describe things as they should be.

Edited May 29 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There is a lack of reality on this issue on the left.

No amount of quibbling, hairsplitting, or left-splaining can undermine that point.

These are UN votes on the issue. It isn’t leftists vs everyone else. It’s everyone else and leftists vs Israel and its lobby 

 

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

It is not that they are naive about how things work, they just want things to be better

You are pragmatic and grounded in brutal reality, they are idealistic and grounded in the fight for a better world

That is the core difference

I claim that they ARE naive and do not understand how survival works.

This is a limit of their paradigmn and its leathally dangerous, as seen with Marxist revolutions of the 20th century. And leftists still have not learned those lessons. This is why I make the points I do.

But hey, I'm just Leosplaining into the abyss.

Edited May 30 by Leo Gura

[Lyubov]

As someone who aligns with leftist world views when it comes to voting, the issue with the world view is that they confuse their aspirations for how things should be vs how they actually are. There is a subtle dishonesty to holding onto beliefs about how the world should be vs accepting the world as it is. It’s pretty simple but this one little thing creates the issues found in the leftist world view. 

Edited May 30 by Lyubov

[aurum]

5 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

It is not that they are naive about how things work, they just want things to be better

If they understood how things worked, they’d understand how wrong their leftism is.

But of course they almost never realize either. 

Edited May 30 by aurum

[zazen]

4 hours ago, Raze said:

These are UN votes on the issue. It isn’t leftists vs everyone else. It’s everyone else and leftists vs Israel and its lobby 

 

When Leo says the left lacks reality it’s true, that doesn’t mean they lack morality. Power and incentives need to be understood just as much as having good hearted principles and ideals.

The left put too much weight on ideals and not enough on incentives. They may be correct in principle, but the incentives of power get in the way every time - which is the default operating system of power. Power is a human animal game (natures default) - principle is a human BEing game (nurtured dignity).

That’s why world opinion can be so overwhelmingly one sided on this - as we can see in the UN votes, but nothing happens. It’s a good idea when fighting / struggling for something, to know who we’re dealing with (players involved) and what game they play (power).

Israel doesn’t survive because it has global support but because it has elite support. As I wrote to Nivsch above - that elite support is now fracturing as new incentives have arisen.

Thank god the gulf got enough money to entrench themselves with Western financial elites - to the point they hold at least some leverage in this. This is another point idealists don’t get as to why the gulf “don’t do anything”. They have trillions invested in the West, if the gulf acts too unilaterally against Israel and the West - their assets can just get frozen as happened with Russia. Too exposed.

They saw what happened when weak Middle Eastern nations defy the West - they had front row seats to that shit show around them. So another path must be taken. Insha’Allah that one will prevail.

[zazen]

19 hours ago, hundreth said:

Yes but that is the point, the restriction on Israel's actions are a result of internal pressures. Whether it is a slowdown or cessation of action.

In Israel there are internal criticisms from prominent figures. Raze downplays that, but it is important. We don't really have an equivalent on the other side.

The idea was never to scapegoat everything on Bibi, but to demonstrate there are meaningful factions within Israeli society which can influence outcomes. 

Do you believe that Israelis or Palestinians are inherently morally corrupt? Probably not. And even if you did, what purpose would proving that serve? The intentions behind my previous posts were to shift the discussions into more practical terms. I don't believe endlessly pontificating on who is more evil between the IDF / Hamas serves any purpose whatsoever. It was cute in the initial months after the war to revisit all the history and gain some context. Now we have done that, and where I once saw a more black / white situation I now see shades of gray. I was wrong. I believe there are some of you who still hold these black / white childish characterizations. It feels like your primary purpose is to promote a broad demonization narrative and not much else. I don't see any substance aside from Israel bad / West bad.

Israel definitely isn't a monolith and its good that there are sizable segments who are more balanced and question the status quo. Lets hope they make it to the state level to steer it in a better direction. 

Regarding morality: I don't think anyone is morally inferior or superior as a inherent quality, but people can still commit immoral acts and hold immoral beliefs which are context dependent. Israeli's are locked into a delusional feedback loop of (past) trauma and (present) domination. Israel is acting within a strategic context shaped by power and paranoia, with its moral compass hijacked by a permanent sense of threat that has been heightened beyond what it really is due to past trauma. And despite being materially developed, they are morally compromised by that delusion.  Its not that they have a innate moral inferiority but that their morality is distorted by a specific context - the same goes for Hamas.

19 hours ago, hundreth said:

I think you believe this is the main lever to pull because if enough people believe it, pressure will be put on the US to halt weapons and ammunitions? You think this will end the war? 

1. Public opinion isn't even close to influencing the US government's actions regarding Israel as the US government is just as motivated.

2. Halting weapons / ammunitions from Israel will not change the outcome, it will only slow it down. Israel will find another way and already has enough resources. In fact, the less tethered they are to the US the less restrained they will be.

3. Further international isolation will not influence anything. They are just about as isolated as can be already.

4. The most sensible direction towards anything positive is to focus on realistic positive change. If we want Palestinian sovereignty, let's find actors from each side who are both in favor of a two state solution and bring them to the forefront. 

We can do better.

- Power dynamics definitely dictates things more directly and concretely than public opinion. Public opinion works like a pressure cooker creating a climate that can indirectly and over time affect elite decisions. This is especially true today when there are factions of elites who's bottom line is affected by those decision - as I wrote about above in the previous comment regarding the Financial industrial complex vs the Military industrial complex. Financial elites are more visible (Blackrock) and exposed to consumers who buy into their products and brands - that brand equity can be damaged by bad optics. Global funds and businesses care about consumer trends because consumers can act on ''no justice, no profit'' ie the BDS movement that helped South Africa end apartheid.

Consumer capital is a lever of soft power. People actually have a lot more power to moralize commerce, even if those at the top of the commercial food chain are a-moral about it. The MIC or military elite faction are largely semi-inuslated from that pressure point because they sell to governments not to every day people. This is why the financial elite can more easily be re-calibrated towards justice.

- Responsibility scales with power and capacity. The more power you have, the more moral weight your decisions carry. The US and Israel bear more responsibility than Hamas or Palestine, not because Hamas is morally perfect, but because they aren’t the ones shaping the geopolitical environment.

- Regarding Israel continuing doing what it wants to do with without the US or global support:  the main lever on Israel is that it's structurally held up by the US. Israel may not be uniquely evil but it is uniquely protected by the US and supported by it. If the US wasn't in the picture that would entirely change the cost-benefit calculus among the Israeli elite - unless they’re suicidal, which I don't think they are.

The less tethered Israel is to the US means it introduces a survivalist logic it hasn't had to visit in some time thanks to US protection - which is why they have acted with such impunity over the decades. It would most likely act more restrained simply for survival. Isolation is a spectrum - right now Israel are globally isolated but not isolated by the ones who matter - some very powerful elites who insulate it via vetoes and diplomatic cover.

Edited May 30 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

Morality without reality ends in evil. Which is 20th century Marxist Cuba, Russia, China, North Korea, etc.

[Karmadhi]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I claim that they ARE naive and do not understand how survival works.

This is a limit of their paradigmn and its leathally dangerous, as seen with Marxist revolutions of the 20th century. And leftists still have not learned those lessons. This is why I make the points I do.

Those are radical dumb leftists

I am talking about proper leftie

Proper lefties want all bad actors that have blood on their hands to face justice and make sure they are held to account

They do not like a world where the "civilized liberal loving international law enforcing community" lets a country get away with genocide and ethnic cleansing

Additionally, to add salt to the wound, the leftists see them doing everything to make Russia pay and they see them doing nothing to make Israel pay

The hypocrisy angers them as well

Lastly I have noticed leftiest tend to measure how a bad a party is based on how much human suffering is inflicted on civilian population rather than who started what

Technically in Israel, it is true that Hamas attacked first (although provoked), meanwhile Russia attacked Ukraine first

But since the human suffering on the civilian population in Gaza is much higher than in Ukraine, they tend to be more angry at Israel, although Israel has some justification on conducting the war. At least more than Russia does.

 

 

Edited May 30 by Karmadhi

[hundreth]

3 hours ago, zazen said:

Israel definitely isn't a monolith and its good that there are sizable segments who are more balanced and question the status quo. Lets hope they make it to the state level to steer it in a better direction. 

Regarding morality: I don't think anyone is morally inferior or superior as a inherent quality, but people can still commit immoral acts and hold immoral beliefs which are context dependent. Israeli's are locked into a delusional feedback loop of (past) trauma and (present) domination. Israel is acting within a strategic context shaped by power and paranoia, with its moral compass hijacked by a permanent sense of threat that has been heightened beyond what it really is due to past trauma. And despite being materially developed, they are morally compromised by that delusion.  Its not that they have a innate moral inferiority but that their morality is distorted by a specific context - the same goes for Hamas.

- Power dynamics definitely dictates things more directly and concretely than public opinion. Public opinion works like a pressure cooker creating a climate that can indirectly and over time affect elite decisions. This is especially true today when there are factions of elites who's bottom line is affected by those decision - as I wrote about above in the previous comment regarding the Financial industrial complex vs the Military industrial complex. Financial elites are more visible (Blackrock) and exposed to consumers who buy into their products and brands - that brand equity can be damaged by bad optics. Global funds and businesses care about consumer trends because consumers can act on ''no justice, no profit'' ie the BDS movement that helped South Africa end apartheid.

Consumer capital is a lever of soft power. People actually have a lot more power to moralize commerce, even if those at the top of the commercial food chain are a-moral about it. The MIC or military elite faction are largely semi-inuslated from that pressure point because they sell to governments not to every day people. This is why the financial elite can more easily be re-calibrated towards justice.

- Responsibility scales with power and capacity. The more power you have, the more moral weight your decisions carry. The US and Israel bear more responsibility than Hamas or Palestine, not because Hamas is morally perfect, but because they aren’t the ones shaping the geopolitical environment.

- Regarding Israel continuing doing what it wants to do with without the US or global support:  the main lever on Israel is that it's structurally held up by the US. Israel may not be uniquely evil but it is uniquely protected by the US and supported by it. If the US wasn't in the picture that would entirely change the cost-benefit calculus among the Israeli elite - unless they’re suicidal, which I don't think they are.

The less tethered Israel is to the US means it introduces a survivalist logic it hasn't had to visit in some time thanks to US protection - which is why they have acted with such impunity over the decades. It would most likely act more restrained simply for survival. Isolation is a spectrum - right now Israel are globally isolated but not isolated by the ones who matter - some very powerful elites who insulate it via vetoes and diplomatic cover.

I guess I just disagree with your conclusions over what effects these levers will have.

By the time your plan has enough of a theoretical effect the damage will be done. There will be nothing left to fight for.

[Twentyfirst]

*Checks social media, sees innocent children getting blown to bits for no reason

*Checks social media, sees Westerners claiming that their values are the highest in the world

*Checks social media, sees Westerners claiming the actions being taken, debated/defended, are not an accurate representation of their core values 

Hmmmm 

[Karmadhi]

22 hours ago, hundreth said:

Yes but that is the point, the restriction on Israel's actions are a result of internal pressures. Whether it is a slowdown or cessation of action.

In Israel there are internal criticisms from prominent figures. Raze downplays that, but it is important. We don't really have an equivalent on the other side.

The idea was never to scapegoat everything on Bibi, but to demonstrate there are meaningful factions within Israeli society which can influence outcomes. 

Do you believe that Israelis or Palestinians are inherently morally corrupt? Probably not. And even if you did, what purpose would proving that serve? The intentions behind my previous posts were to shift the discussions into more practical terms. I don't believe endlessly pontificating on who is more evil between the IDF / Hamas serves any purpose whatsoever. It was cute in the initial months after the war to revisit all the history and gain some context. Now we have done that, and where I once saw a more black / white situation I now see shades of gray. I was wrong. I believe there are some of you who still hold these black / white childish characterizations. It feels like your primary purpose is to promote a broad demonization narrative and not much else. I don't see any substance aside from Israel bad / West bad.

I think you believe this is the main lever to pull because if enough people believe it, pressure will be put on the US to halt weapons and ammunitions? You think this will end the war? 

This is how the "internal forces" in Israel treat someone that points out something they do not like

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-05-28/ty-article-magazine/.premium/yes-to-transfer-82-of-jewish-israelis-back-expelling-gazans/00000197-12a4-df22-a9d7-9ef6af930000

Sorry but when the majority actually supports ethnic cleansing, it shows that the entire society is rotten, not just Bibi and his government

The core issue here is that the majority of Israeli Jews, think that "EVERY Gazan supports Hamas and wants to wipe out all the Jews in Israel"

They always use the same bullshit argument that "there were civilians that took part in October 7th"

Yes there were, couple of hundred out of 2.2 million

Maybe 5% of Gazans want to genocide the Jews

But that is 5%, not "most" as Israelis claim with 0 proof

I am very dissapointed at how low Israel has fallen

They have basically reached WW2 Nazi Germany level of dehuminization towards Palestinians, their hatred is disturbing

It took them 800 civilians to be killed for them to become like this

Imagine Palestine that has lost tens of thousands even before October 7th

How are they supposed to feel?

I wonder how genocidal Israel would become if they actually suffered the same as Palestinians have

They endured 1/10 of it and already lost all their shit

Edited May 30 by Karmadhi

[zazen]

3 hours ago, hundreth said:

I guess I just disagree with your conclusions over what effects these levers will have.

By the time your plan has enough of a theoretical effect the damage will be done. There will be nothing left to fight for.

The situation is fluid and no outcome is guaranteed. I agree the soft power lever via public pressure isn't the strongest - that's a slow burn as I've already pointed out.

But there seems to be a new game in town being pursued by a newer faction of elite, that are in a tug of war with the old faction being the necons. I'm not sure how else to make sense of the conflicting headlines and behaviors except that there is a negotiated collapse of the neocon paradigm (bibi) and the rise of a new elite consensus that prioritizes stability, normalization, and profit over endless conflict.

The only way to make sense of it without falling into simplistic conspiracy theories is to understand that multiple elite factions with diverging interests are operating simultaneously. Elite factions that previously were aligned (military and finance) but of who the latter are now responding to shifting power dynamics, and new incentives - even whilst using the old tool of military threat to milk profits and extract concessions in negotiations.

The remaining pieces* are the Palestine question and Iran. Unfortunately Palestinian lives are being used as a pawn in this - the threat of their extermination and now the threat by Bibi of targeting Iranian nuclear sites. 

How else do we explain a ex Al-Qaeda leader like Jolani in Syria being welcomed by establishment and sanctions lifted, Iran-Saudi normalization - two arch enemies, Trump going direct to Hamas and Iran to talk angering Israel? Whats the sentiment of Israeli's with his actions?

Edited May 30 by zazen

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Maybe 5% of Gazans want to genocide the Jews

But that is 5%, not "most" as Israelis claim with 0 proof

Very funny. Do you truly believe this? if so, you are precisely the delusional lefty Leo was referring to. 

You also literally did exactly what I pointed out, which is to demonize all of Israeli society and paint them as "rotten." You conveniently didn't answer my follow up questions. If you even prove this is true, what purpose does it serve you? What do you hope to achieve? Let's say everyone agrees Israelis are inherently morally corrupt and "rotten." What then? 

Edited May 30 by hundreth