Humanity Has Failed

[Alex4]

19 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Their actions are worse only because Palestinians are too uncivilized to have serious technology.

Imagine what would happen if Hamas had nukes. Israel has nukes. There is your purest example of moral difference. This difference is real and you are trying to weasel your way around it with every post. And I keep trying to point it out to you. But you keep refusing to see it.

Just to have nukes and not use them requires both technological AND moral development.

There are some crazy far right Israelis who want to use nukes on Gaza. And they are morally equivalent to Hamas. But Israel as a society is developed enough to have checks against that. But Palestine does not. However bad Netanyahu is, he's is not barbaric enough to nuke Gaza. The same cannot be said of Hamas.

Nothing I said here means you can't hold Israel accountable for war crimes or put sanctions on them. You could. But it just won't happen for larger political reasons. I am not saying what should happen, I am predicting what will happen. You can see if my predictions are correct over the years. The aim of my political views is to predict social reality as accurately as possible, as opposed to having my wishes and ideals fulfilled. That's the difference between me and typical leftists. I actually care what is real.

You could argue that Hamas would have more justification for using nuclear weapons (if they had them) since the original problem was caused by Israel kicking Palestinians out of their homes. Israel has to tread carefully because they know they were the ones who started this conflict. Even if they don’t admit it, it’s something they know in the back of their mind. 

[Raze]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Hamas are like rats in a frying pan. So they act like lunatics. It's sad, but it just is what it is and you have to deal with the rat at hand, not some hypothetical would-be scenario.

If a mentally ill homeless man attacks you on the street, you gotta deal with him immediately, you cannot sit around lamenting about how unfair his childhood was. Yes, I'm sure his childhood was very unfair, but now he is a violent lunatic about to bite your face off. You cannot just let him run loose around your family.

Is Hamas demolishing the homes of Israelis and moving in armed violent Palestinians who regularly go on rampages beating and killing Israelis in their own homes every year where the Israeli government doesn’t even defend itself? No, but israel is doing that to palestinians in the West Bank, who is the rat in the pan in this scenario.

Nothing about what israel is doing is about dealing with Hamas. If they actually wanted to deal with Hamas, why did they 

- send funds to Hamas

- not guard the Gaza border

- reject Hamas’s offer for a ten year ceasefire in exchange for a state

- reject Hamas’s offer to disarm in exchange for a state 

- reject the offer for Hamas to give up power to the PA

Netanyahu himself has stated multiple times the goal is ethnic cleansing, which you acknowledge, why do you keep repeating that they are just “dealing with Hamas”?

The homeless man scenario implies it happens randomly and force is the only option. A more accurate comparison would be if you kept the homeless man locked inside a prison for years and limited his food supply and regularly beat him while arresting his family members, then he busts out and attacks you and kidnaps your family, and says he’ll give them back if you stop attacking him, and you say no. That’s what israel is doing.

Edited May 29 by Raze

[hundreth]

21 hours ago, Raze said:

No, I’m disputing the notion Israelis are morally “superior”, by any relevant metric their actions are worse.  The idea that having more economic and technological development by default means they must by default not be as bad in the crimes they commit is absurd when they’ve committed settler colonialism, ethnic cleansing, and now genocide. You can be more “developed” but commit morally worse actions and worse crimes than less developed populations.
 

The ANC killed civilians and committed terrorism, but they weren’t “morally worse” than the apartheid government. I’ll even grant Palestinian militants are worse than the ANC because historically they targeted civilians more, but Israel is far worse than South Africa’s apartheid government, even former anti apartheid activists who lived through it said this.
 

As an israel supporter you are no different, you’ve justified and defended monstrous atrocities far worse than anything Hamas has done multiple times. You’ve basically reverted into gross nationalism like on the other thread ranting about how this is all justified on religious grounds. The irony of accusing others of being childish when you proudly say you analyze the conflict from the perspective of being a nationalist Jew who thinks the religious claims of land ownership is relevant. 

I did not justify or defend anything.

You didn't really comprehend what I wrote. I only wrote what I felt was an accurate description of the situation and how best to move forward.

For the record I don't believe religious claims are relevant, only that Jews as a whole do and that fact IS relevant.

[Karmadhi]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But that economic development matters! Economics is pure survival value. Yes, Israel has much better economics which allows it to be more developed and civilized. It's not just easier to seem moral, it is the foundation for actual morality. Morality requires survival margin. Desperate people do desperate things. If I put a gun to your child's head you would start acting in immoral ways.

And yes, upper hand matters too. America too would use nukes if backed absolutely into a corner. But the point is that America has enough margin to never be backed into such a corner. The margin isn't incidental, it is fundamental to development.

If Hamas is so barbaric and underdeveloped how come their method of killing people is shooting them in the face, instead of more medival methods like beheadings, burning people alive or cutting of limbs?

ISIS used to do those

Imperial Japan too

Shooting people in the face in mass is the most common and default way of killing in war

When the October attack happened there were many cases of seemingly actually barbaric behavior that were later disproven

"Yossi Landau, regional head of the relief organisation ZAKA, stated to Sky News that around 80% of the bodies at Be'eri and Kfar Aza showed signs of torture, and that he found "two piles of ten children each were tied to the back, burnt to death" at Be'eri.[63] Haaretz later found the claim regarding the tied children was erroneous, because the list of the dead at Be'eri only includes 9 children, and there are no cases known from Be'eri or any of the surrounding communities of children from several families having been murdered together"

"One highly publicized testimony, asserting that a pregnant woman had had her womb cut open and her fetus stabbed, was later shown to have been untrue; the kibbutz released a statement saying that "the story of the pregnant woman reported by Zaka is not relevant to Be'eri."[24] Another case concerned teenage sisters murdered by Hamas and allegedly raped before being killed; a video taken by an Israeli soldier subsequently came to light contradicting an Israeli military paramedic's public testimony of what he found at the scene."

If these things would have actually happened, then I would agree that Hamas is barbaric

Maybe you think they happened since they were not long ago disproved and base your judgement of Hamas on this?

This is how a barbaric army acts, not just shooting people in the face, which happens by every army in every war ever in 21st century

Edited May 29 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

9 hours ago, Nivsch said:

What do you think would happen if America or a European country like the one you live in, would have to face a direct threat from a neighboring terror state (not just Iraq they already attacked with thousands of civillians who got killed) let alone oct7? Are you sure they would react better then Israel? This obsession to hunt Israel you display is amazing.

Yes they would have

They would not tolerate 100 civilians dying to get 1 commander, they would not tolerate 20 civilians killed to get 1 regular soldier, they would not wait for soldiers to go home before bombing them, they would not impose a blockade and create a man made famine, they would not snipe childreen in the head, they would not stop the flow of medicine from entering, they would not carpet bomb, they would not shoot at hungry people lining for aid

https://www.timesofisrael.com/outrage-as-opposition-party-leader-golan-says-israel-killing-babies-as-a-hobby-in-gaza/

You honestly think they would do this? Come on man...

 

Edited May 29 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What's actually stopping Smotrich is not the world, it's internal Israel civilization. Too many in Israeli government would disapprove of an actual genocide.

You give them too much credit, that society is brainwashed into hating Palestinians

It is similar to Germans during WW2 which were pretty advanced but had a genocidal attitude towards Jews

I have seen endless videos of Israeli civilians openly say they want to wipe out Gazans and that they get joy when they see Gaza bombed

Also I have spoken personally with dozens and dozens of Israelis and what they say is truly disturbing. Hardcore  toxic Stage Blue stuff.  

Will make a thread about it soon

If not proper genocide, the majority supports them being ethnically cleansed

Dont look at Israelis at this forum, they are outliers since they follow your work

The issue is the dehumanization they have towards Palestinians which is one of the worst in the world when it comes to dehumanization

 

 

Edited May 29 by Karmadhi

[hundreth]

13 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

You give them too much credit, that society is brainwashed into hating Palestinians

It is similar to Germans during WW2 which were pretty advanced but had a genocidal attitude towards Jews

I have seen endless videos of Israeli civilians openly say they want to wipe out Gazans and that they get joy when they see Gaza bombed

Also I have spoken personally with dozens and dozens of Israelis and what they say is truly disturbing. Hardcore  toxic Stage Blue stuff.  

Will make a thread about it soon

If not proper genocide, the majority supports them being ethnically cleansed

Dont look at Israelis at this forum, they are outliers since they follow your work

The issue is the dehumanization they have towards Palestinians which is one of the worst in the world when it comes to dehumanization

 

You realize there are sectors of Israeli society who aren't making it onto viral online clips right?

Even if it were true that the majority are rabid with anger now and behaving unhinged, that doesn't mean they can do whatever they want.

The Haaretz paper that is constantly cited here is a good example of why. This is one such example of Israeli society which does not adopt those views. That is a very prominent and popular publication.

Where is the Palestinian equivalent of such a publication that internally criticizes their leadership?

[Nivsch]

26 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Yes they would have

They would not tolerate 100 civilians dying to get 1 commander, they would not tolerate 20 civilians killed to get 1 regular soldier, they would not wait for soldiers to go home before bombing them, they would not impose a blockade and create a man made famine, they would not snipe childreen in the head, they would not stop the flow of medicine from entering, they would not carpet bomb, they would not shoot at hungry people lining for aid

https://www.timesofisrael.com/outrage-as-opposition-party-leader-golan-says-israel-killing-babies-as-a-hobby-in-gaza/

You honestly think they would do this? Come on man...

This is nice as a fantasy.

Edited May 29 by Nivsch

[Raze]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

They ARE starving them and the world ain't doing much to stop it except some stern phone calls.

What's actually stopping Smotrich is not the world, it's internal Israel civilization. Too many in Israeli government would disapprove of an actual genocide.

Then how do you explain polls showing the majority of Israelis want all aid to Gaza blocked?

 

[Raze]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Keep dreaming

We have polls now showing the majority of Israelis want Gaza starved and half want all Gazans killed. Find me a similar poll for Americans regarding Afghanis.

When a news report revealed American soldiers were torturing Iraqis at a prison, there was widespread outrage in America.

When it was revealed israel was torturing Palestinians in sde teiman and are on video raping one, polls showed the majority of Israelis don’t believe they should be criminally prosecuted. 

[hundreth]

Just now, Raze said:

Then how do you explain polls showing the majority of Israelis want all aid to Gaza blocked?

 

Please see my other response to @Karmadhi... majority doesn't mean you can do whatever you want.

The majority of Americans now voted for Trump. If you look up clips of Americans externally now we probably seem preposterous.

[Raze]

5 minutes ago, hundreth said:

 

You realize there are sectors of Israeli society who aren't making it onto viral online clips right?

Even if it were true that the majority are rabid with anger now and behaving unhinged, that doesn't mean they can do whatever they want.

The Haaretz paper that is constantly cited here is a good example of why. This is one such example of Israeli society which does not adopt those views. That is a very prominent and popular publication.

Where is the Palestinian equivalent of such a publication that internally criticizes their leadership?

Haaretz has only 4% readership, it’s a small minority, 

[Nivsch]

2 minutes ago, Raze said:

Then how do you explain polls showing the majority of Israelis want all aid to Gaza blocked?

Hostages

But I personally think Israel shuold agree a deal and release them all long time ago.

[Raze]

Just now, hundreth said:

Please see my other response to @Karmadhi... majority doesn't mean you can do whatever you want.

The majority of Americans now voted for Trump. If you look up clips of Americans externally now we probably seem preposterous.

Yes, they can’t do whatever they want because of international pressure, but the polls show what the majority would be ok with if they could.

Trump won among voters, not necessarily the whole population, also it was a choice between him and Kamala, not overall.

[Nivsch]

3 minutes ago, Raze said:

Haaretz has only 4% readership, it’s a small minority, 

Half of Israelis want the Two State Solution even today.

See researches I added in the Israel/Palestine thread (the post of Ron Gerlitz).

[Raze]

1 minute ago, Nivsch said:

Half of Israelis want the Two State Solution even today.

See researches I added in the Israel/Palestine thread (the post of Ron Gerlitz).

Illegal settlements grew under every prime minister.

[zazen]

@Nivsch @hundreth

The discussion Raze - Leo - Karmadhi were having was about the moral development of Israelis vs Palestinians / Hamas, which I jumped in on. 

That's the point of raising those polls - to indicate something about that development. Hundreth, you say ''majority doesn't mean you can do whatever you want'' but the fact is it is being done but just in a slower manner.

Past Israeli PM's are now coming out (Olmert) saying that Israel is committing war crimes: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/27/former-israeli-pm-ehud-olmert-says-his-country-is-committing-war-crimes

'“Recent operations in Gaza have nothing to do with legitimate war goals,” he wrote. “This is now a private political war. Its immediate result is the transformation of Gaza into a humanitarian disaster area.”

Olmert said he had often asserted that Israel was not committing war crimes in Gaza and claimed with conviction that “in no case did a government official give orders to hit Gazan civilians indiscriminately”.

However, in recent weeks, “I’ve been no longer able to do so,” he said. “What we are doing in Gaza now is a war of devastation: indiscriminate, limitless, cruel and criminal killing of civilians. It’s the result of government policy – knowingly, evilly, maliciously, irresponsibly dictated.”

The polls - whether true or good enough to go by or not - show that it isn't just a issue that can be scapegoated to Bibi or the far right, as disturbing views are held widely. If Bibi is out of power, theres many that can take his place and continue on the same devastation. These polls were also not taken in the aftermath of October 7th when the population was full of rage, but many many months later when there should have been some what cooler heads.

Edited May 29 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@Raze I edited my comment to @Karmadhi and changed the tone that was less fair ("keep dreaming") but what he describes is a fantasy anyway.

[Nivsch]

@Raze

An enemy who is growing nearby your town is a completely different reality for you than an enemy who "treatens the Western civilization" 8000 km away from you.

I am not justifying any of the things you said some Israelis are saying but you can't compare apples and oranges.

Edited May 29 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

17 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

How exactly does punishing a civilian population in such an inhumane way help you in becoming more secure? It just increases their hatred towards you and rightfully so. People that would not have joined Hamas or any other group will do so after half their family has been killed. Not to mention all the heat Jewish people around the world are getting due to Israeli actions

It only makes sense if you ethnically cleanse the population after

In that case it may work, yes

But to doing it is another level of low human development

Morally developed nations do not do ethnic cleansing

Instead they look for proper solutions that do not involve such barbarism

The whole reason Israel is hated so much in the region is because they never accepted the real solution which is to recognize Palestinian statehood and end the occupation. They prefer ethnic cleansing. It may work, who knows. But that is Stalin level logic

Just the fact that Israel has to do ethnic cleansing instead of a two state solution or a prceise and targeted war  shows how under developed they truly are

"Death solves all problems, no man, no problem."

Good point. Israel is suicidal. If they end up getting 78% of the land and continue to build settlements illegally to frustrate the other party in a region surrounded by people who hate them. Then they do not care about the destiny of their people. How can you be so greedy to want to go from 78% to say 85% rather than making a deal. Israel is more suicidal against it's own people than Hamas because Israel keeps pushing it's luck, is surrounded by more enemies than Hamas, and is doing it all illegally 

Edited May 29 by Twentyfirst