Humanity Has Failed

[Karmadhi]

Just now, Raze said:

amas doesn’t represent Palestinian society anymore than far right Israelis.

The PLO controls the West Bank and they don’t even defend themselves. 

Just saying Hamas would do worse if they could is irrelevant when you can make the exact same argument about Israel. Israel would do worse if it wasn’t for international pressure. They wanted to block all food and water after oct 7, only after the US demanded it did they allow it.

I feel like Leo thinks the average Israeli is like Nivsch meanwhile they are probably more similar to Smotrich or Netanyahu 

Meanwhile he thinks the average Palestinian and especially Gazan is a Hamas supporter

Who you consider as the "average citizen" of a place dictates how you see the moral development of that society

 

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Karmadhi According to this report 7,500 civilians were killed by the US military in the first 2 years of Iraq invasion.

https://asiatimes.com/2023/03/how-many-iraqis-did-the-us-really-kill/#

But Gaza is way more densely populated and the US has much higher level of military standards and professionalism. Also US was not interested in ethnic cleansing like Israel is, since they live there.

also, US was not really under existential threat. Israel is much more threatened in the Middle East than the US is.

Israel isn’t under existential threat from Hamas either, they are completely blockaded in Gaza and just fire rockets that are easily intercepted. Oct 7 was a fluke from incompetence and even that wasn’t an existential threat.

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I am informed of those things. But they are waging a war at this point. Yes, in a war stuff like gets blown up.

And after Oct 7th Israel is doing revenge and ethnic cleansing.

Yes, Israel does revenge attacks on civilian targets sometimes. They can't help themselves. Those are war crimes. War crimes are common in war.

This isn’t just common war crimes happening in war, the former Israeli PM literally just wrote an op Ed admitting they are committing illegal war crimes as an act of policy, not accidentally. 

The comparison with the US is not a good one. Nothing in the US war on terror was remotely as bad as what israel is doing, more may have died but it was far more combatants to civilians and a lot was indirectly because of incompetence leaving power vacuums.

Have you read the amnesty international or human rights watch reports charging genocide? Or the ICC / ICJ cases? These aren’t being made lightly. The last conflict that had this rapid a rate of child deaths was Rwanda.

The US public didn’t get wrapped up in a genocidal furor like Israel. 
 

A poll just came out finding nearly half of Israelis believe every single Gazan should be killed. 

Edited May 28 by Raze

[Karmadhi]

@Raze

12 minutes ago, Raze said:

A poll just came out finding nearly half of Israelis believe every single Gazan should be killed. 

 

I am geniounly baffled on what a low moral development tons of people have in Israel

I have discussed with dozens of them on Tik Tok lives.

I will make a thread about this but it has made me loose all faith in that country

They re not much better than Nazis when it comes to dehuminizing another group and genocidal intent

The things I have heard them say make my skin crawl

Even if Israelis had some decency before October 7th, now they no longer do.

You do not need to  nuke  a place to genocide it.

Edited May 28 by Karmadhi

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

ISIS < Hamas < Taliban < North Korea < Iran < Russia/China < Israel < USA < Scandinavia

There are many degrees.

How is Hamas worse than the Taliban? Hamas didn’t even islamize it’s school system completely. Hamas proposed long term ceasefires on the border of two states, Taliban always wanted to fight for all of Afghanistan.

We talked about nukes earlier, well Iran not only hasn’t made nukes but has proposed the entire Middle East be nuclear weapon free, israel literally stole uranium from the US to illegally make nukes and has a doctrine to nuke the entire Middle East if they fall. Clearly Israel is worse here, yet should we assume this is more moral because their “development” is higher?

Russia and China are lower than Israel? What have they done in the last 30 years that is worse than what israel is doing right now? They absolutely have power to do something worse if they wanted. Before you say Ukraine and Uyghurs, it’s not even close.

 

Edited May 28 by Raze

[Leo Gura]

48 minutes ago, Raze said:

Saying “Palestinians would do worse if they could” is irrelevant. So would israel. 

No!

Israel would not.

Israel can kill every Palestinian, easily. They do not.

[Raze]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No!

Israel would not.

Israel can kill every Palestinian, easily. They do not.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotrich-it-may-be-justified-to-starve-2-million-gazans-but-world-wont-let-us/

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Raze said:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotrich-it-may-be-justified-to-starve-2-million-gazans-but-world-wont-let-us/

They ARE starving them and the world ain't doing much to stop it except some stern phone calls.

What's actually stopping Smotrich is not the world, it's internal Israel civilization. Too many in Israeli government would disapprove of an actual genocide.

Edited May 29 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

39 minutes ago, Raze said:

well Iran not only hasn’t made nukes

The only reason Iran hasn't made nukes is because Mossad assassinated all their nuclear scientists and sabotaged their reactors.

Assassinating scientists is technically a war crime.

Edited May 29 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

They ARE starving them and the world ain't doing much to stop it except some stern phone calls.

And they were forced to let in some aid so as to not look bad. They said this themselves.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2025/05/19/israel-gaza-aid-netanyahu/

They also weren’t allowed to stop the water as they wanted from day 1, and had to settle for destroying some water desalination facilities.

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The only reason Iran hasn't made nukes is because Mossad assassinated all their nuclear scientists and sabotaged their reactors.

This is false, most analysts believe they could make nukes if they wanted to.

https://thebulletin.org/2025/01/how-quickly-could-iran-build-its-first-nuclear-weapon-look-at-china/

Quote

Some nuclear experts argue it would take Iran anywhere between several months to up to a year. But China's experience shows that Tehran could build a bomb much faster—in as little as three to five weeks.

There is no indication they have tried to weaponize their nuclear program 

Edited May 29 by Raze

[Leo Gura]

I spent hours this week reading step by step about how Mossad assassinated top nuclear scientists. Poisoned, mail bombed, car bombed, shot in the face.

Anyone who comes close to building a nuke in the Middle East will get a visit from Mossad assassins. That's how serious they take this matter.

Netanyahu nearly launched an IDF invasion of Iran to take out their nuclear facilities.

Edited May 29 by Leo Gura

[gengar]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Their actions are worse only because Palestinians are too uncivilized to have serious technology.

Imagine what would happen if Hamas had nukes. Israel has nukes. There is your purest example of moral difference. This difference is real and you are trying to weasel your way around it with every post. And I keep trying to point it out to you. But you keep refusing to see it.

Just to have nukes and not use them requires both technological AND moral development.

There are some crazy far right Israelis who want to use nukes on Gaza. And they are morally equivalent to Hamas. But Israel as a society is developed enough to have checks against that. But Palestine does not. However bad Netanyahu is, he's is not barbaric enough to nuke Gaza. The same cannot be said of Hamas.

Nothing I said here means you can't hold Israel accountable for war crimes or put sanctions on them. You could. But it just won't happen for larger political reasons. I am not saying what should happen, I am predicting what will happen. You can see if my predictions are correct over the years. The aim of my political views is to predict social reality as accurately as possible, as opposed to having my wishes and ideals fulfilled. That's the difference between me and typical leftists. I actually care what is real.

Doesn't your argument get conflated by the fact that since Israel is more economically developed? It's easier too seem moral and "not use nukes" if you have the upper hand by 10x. Israel can seem moral by not nuking, because they don't need to. It's better for them to cause a slow death for Palestine.

Moderate Israelis outsource their savagery to the extreme Israelis. If all extreme Israelis dropped dead, moderate Israelis took their place.

Isn't it also a blatant fact that the entire country of Israel is an illegal colonialist state? Why else do the liberals always say "Jews deserve a homeland", because if they don't spout that platitude, they know the settling of Israel would be seen as completely illegal by everyone.
it's akin to the Spaniards taking America from the natives. Are we really gonna act like these factors don't count when factoring the level of savagery and moral development?

I'm not saying Hamas is not savage obviously. they clearly are


 

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi What do you think would happen if America or a European country like the one you live in, would have to face a direct threat from a neighboring terror state (not just Iraq they already attacked with thousands of civillians who got killed) let alone oct7? Are you sure they would react better then Israel? This obsession to hunt Israel you display is amazing.

Edited May 29 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, gengar said:

since Israel is more economically developed? It's easier too seem moral and "not use nukes" if you have the upper hand by 10x.

But that economic development matters! Economics is pure survival value. Yes, Israel has much better economics which allows it to be more developed and civilized. It's not just easier to seem moral, it is the foundation for actual morality. Morality requires survival margin. Desperate people do desperate things. If I put a gun to your child's head you would start acting in immoral ways.

And yes, upper hand matters too. America too would use nukes if backed absolutely into a corner. But the point is that America has enough margin to never be backed into such a corner. The margin isn't incidental, it is fundamental to development.

Hamas are like rats in a frying pan. So they act like lunatics. It's sad, but it just is what it is and you have to deal with the rat at hand, not some hypothetical would-be scenario.

If a mentally ill homeless man attacks you on the street, you gotta deal with him immediately, you cannot sit around lamenting about how unfair his childhood was. Yes, I'm sure his childhood was very unfair, but now he is a violent lunatic about to bite your face off. You cannot just let him run loose around your family.

Edited May 29 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

6 hours ago, Raze said:

The comparison with the US is not a good one. Nothing in the US war on terror was remotely as bad as what israel is doing, more may have died but it was far more combatants to civilians and a lot was indirectly because of incompetence leaving power vacuums.

The comparison is very good.

You know that Western countries as a whole have no problem to kill thousands of civillian in their war against terror when it is thousands of km from their home. Now imagine what would happen if ISIS was 50km from their homes.

[Nivsch]

This is not an invitation to demonize any country based on its government's actions or right wing sectors agenda that is implemented.

Edited May 29 by Nivsch

[zazen]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

America too would use nukes if backed absolutely into a corner. But the point is that America has enough margin to never be backed into such a corner.

Aren’t they the only country to not only use nukes once but twice - when they didn’t even have to and definetely weren’t backed into any corner? All the way in Japan who was by many accounts already on the brink of surrender - and on the civilian filled cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

If moral development is defined by restraint of power then they have failed.

Pakistan have nukes and are almost similar to Palestinians in terms of sharing the same Sunni Islam belief system, dealing with internal fanaticism, and being in a tense neighbourhood (India-Pakistan). Pakistan is also very low on material development and hasn’t yet used its nukes despite being gaslit as a terrorist state post 9/11.

Like you said - desperate people do desperate things. But you’re conflating desperation with depravity. And conflating suicidality with morality - without looking at the structural causes. Suicide bombings are obviously horrific but are acts of desperation in asymmetric warfare - typically by stateless, oppressed populations who lack conventional means. 

Resistance from the oppressed (even when ugly) isn’t equivalent to domination from the powerful. Suicidal acts are a reflection of hopelessness, not moral inferiority. Japan and South Korea are rich nations with high suicide rates - a signal of hopelessness at a societal level, not moral inferiority.

 

 

Edited May 29 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, zazen said:

Pakistan have nukes and are almost similar to Palestinians

Pakistan has a friendly and cooperative relationship with the US and the CIA. Pakistan helps the US hunt down terrorists.

Edited May 29 by Leo Gura

[zazen]

@Leo Gura

If someone pins you down and you try scratching their eyes out - are you morally inferior?

Context matters. Desperate acts should be contextualized rather than pathologized as moral inferiority of a group.

I would definetely say ISIS are morally inferior to Hamas because they have global aspirations of domination with ideological purity driving them - fanatically violent.

Hamas meanwhile are in a localized geopolitical struggle with aspirations of liberation - contextually violent.

What contextual excuse did the US have to nuke two civilian cities when it didn’t have to?

Edited May 29 by zazen

[BlueOak]

10 hours ago, Raze said:

 

Your analysis is based on assumptions that technological development equates to moral development equates to morality of actions. That makes no sense.

Well it does in part, because he's equating the morality of actions to be refected in the level of advantage a country has over its neighbors, or at least the ability to research and develop new technologies, and that relies on a variety of factors which shape moral character by the virtue of them existing. Certain technologies existing do by their nature also remove survival concerns or fears which in turn shapes the ethics of that society.

Technological development and certainly a level of advantage over your neighbours require a great deal of progress within society. Cooperation internally and externally to acquire speciality or resources, a lower level of corruption, a well-functioning education system, a healthy economy, and the huge supply chains that necessitate not just delivery but development, which stagnates in climates of conflict or great stress on these factors. The regulation of them, the institutions responsible for sustaining them, and a healthy culture which inspires or demands it.

Technology, in the modern setting, facilitates stage green to then occur because we have the advantage (in the zero-sum game, orange plays), of time and space to indulge in it, while society here is still largely structured to be orange.

Yes it requires safety, security, and law and order also, but more development than that is necessary by the people or country involved.

Can a country regress in its moral or ethical character while technologically advanced, yes. I would argue the last 20 years are clear indications of it. But its very difficult to argue these points on their own, even citing what I have, because morality is largely subjective and certainly acting along ethical or moral grounds is far from guaranteed even when they are in place.

*Also as it does this it tends to regress, as demonstrated by people restructuring education/culture currently so it regresses in some regions of the world, or what is called the brain drain as people abandon their society for something more aligned with themselves. I mean here in England we are slowly eroding our food standards, which has slow but gradual effects on the population from health through to intelligence.

Edited May 29 by BlueOak

[Raze]

7 hours ago, Nivsch said:

The comparison is very good.

You know that Western countries as a whole have no problem to kill thousands of civillian in their war against terror when it is thousands of km from their home. Now imagine what would happen if ISIS was 50km from their homes.

The issue isn’t killing thousands of civilians, the issue is the US saw that as a byproduct to be minimized while it targets enemy combatants.

Israel sees punishing civilians as the goal to advance ethnic cleansing.

We can see this in ratios, in the US wars they killed more combatants than civilians (directly), even in Syria which involves Russia and Iran and ISIS over 80% of the casualties were adult men. Meanwhile in Gaza israel has blocked food and medicine, destroyed nearly every hospital and school, and under 40% of the casualties are adult men, and Israeli politicians have stated multiple times the goal is to make Gaza unlivable and ethnically cleanse the population.

Vox interviewed four genocide / international law scholars in 2023, and only one said they thought Israel was committing a genocide, then in 2024 they interviewed them again and only one thought they weren’t committing a genocide.

A Dutch newspaper interviewed seven genocide scholars in 2025, all said they believe Israel is committing genocide, and some even said they didn’t know anyone in their field who thought it wasn’t.

Even if they are somehow all wrong, the fact that the genocide discussion is seriously on the table means Israel is comment war crimes far beyond what the US did in the war on terror. 

Edited May 29 by Raze