Humanity Has Failed

[Raze]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Jihadists want ethnic cleansing.

I'm done debating this.

So why didn’t they ethnically cleanse the Jews and Christians living their prior to Zionism? 
 

Jihadists would want to install some version of Islamic law, that doesn’t call for ethnic cleansing by default. 

Edited May 25 by Raze

[Leo Gura]

26 minutes ago, Raze said:

So why didn’t they ethnically cleanse the Jews and Christians living their prior to Zionism? 

Obviously because Zionism didn't yet try to ethnically cleanse them.

Their opposition to Zionism is not religious, it's political and nationalist. Zionism built a powerful nation on their land where they were suppped to build their own nation. So of course they want to eliminate that nation.

If I built a house on your land your top goal would be to wipe my house off the land.

It's not complicated.

Edited May 25 by Leo Gura

[Aaron p]

An interesting idea, what about Yemen....Most people don't even care about the war there because the media doesn't cover it as much.

The Yemen crisis hasn't been sensationalised and saturated by western media...yet their crisis is just as valid as the Israel Vs Palestine conflict

 

 

[Raze]

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Obviously because Zionism didn't yet try to ethnically cleanse them.

Their opposition to Zionism is not religious, it's political and nationalist. Zionism built a powerful nation on their land where they were suppped to build their own nation. So of course they want to eliminate that nation.

If I built a house on your land your top goal would be to wipe my house off the land.

It's not complicated.

Destroying Zionism isn’t the same as wanting to ethnically cleanse israel. A Islamist could want to destroy Israel but be fine with Jews living there as long as they got to have their Islamist government.

Edited May 25 by Raze

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Raze said:

Destroying Zionism isn’t the same as wanting to ethnically cleanse israel. A Islamist could want to destroy Israel but be fine with Jews living there as long as they got to have their Islamist government.

That's like saying Israel isn't doing ethnic cleansing because Arabs are allowed to live in Israel.

Netanyahu says such nonsense all the time.

Edited May 25 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Hamas' goal is definitely the expulsion of all Zionists from Palestine.

They have equal goals. They both want to ethnically cleanse the same piece of land. This is why the conflict is endless. Both sides believe they can succeed in pushing the other off the land and not need to share it.

It's like two dogs fighting over the same bone.

The whole point of the thread Leo is that the West sees Israel as a moral entity not engaged in ethnic cleansing but simply defending themselves. By what you write here you basically say Zionists want to do ethnic cleansing yet the West calls Israel a moral country, supports it and arms it.

That is why we say humanity has failed in Gaza

Because they are on the side of a bully. 

If Hamas is also awful, fine, then dont help either.

Why is Hamas declared a terrorist organiztion and the IDF is not?

If both sides want to do ethnic cleansing as you say

Hamas is not supported yet Israel is.

Where are the sanctions for Israel? Where is the cutting of relations with Israel?

As far as i know ethnic cleansing is illegal and looked down upon as a wrong act in the side of 99% of the population in the West.

Edited May 25 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Why is Hamas declared a terrorist organiztion and the IDF is not?

There are important differences. But Israel is doing ethnic cleansing. Why is this so hard to understand?

Edited May 25 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

There are important differences. But Israel is doing ethnic cleansing. Why is this so hard to understand?

Because the West calls Israel a moral army and country, supports it yet Israel does ethnic cleansing

A developed moral country and army does not resort to such tactics

The West says they respect international law and human rights yet they reward a country that does one of the most disgusting crimes that exists

That is the problem

Until the West sanctions and cuts ties with Israel, the point of the thread remains

Why is it so hard to cut ties with a country that is doing such horrible crimes?

What am i missing?

This thread is not about Hamas, it is about Western support for Israel despite its horrible actions.

[Leo Gura]

Well, "the West" is a gross generalization.

I'm part of "the West" and I say it's ethnic cleansing and the US should stop supplying it with weapons.

But that's not gonna happen any time soon because the US and Israel intel agencies are allied and share intel and jointly hunt down terrorists.

Edited May 26 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, "the West" is a gross generalization.

I'm part of "the West" and I say it's ethnic cleansing and the US should stop supplying it with weapons.

By the West i mean the European Union (especially France and Germany which are the two most important actors in it), UK and USA

The only big country government that has openly tried to take concrete actions is Spain and Ireland (they are smaller country but still)

Rest are either indifferent or downright support it

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But that's not gonna happen any time soon because the US and Israel intel agencies are allied and share intel and jointly hunt down terrorists.

But doesnt USA get targeted by terrorists BECAUSE it supports Israel so much? If USA cut ties with Israel they would not even need to share intel because USA would stop being targeted so much by terrorists. Or is it too late for that?

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

But doesnt USA get targeted by terrorists BECAUSE it supports Israel so much? If USA cut ties with Israel they would not even need to share intel because USA would stop being targeted so much by terrorists. Or is it too late for that?

Yeah, but terrorists would still attack America for other reasons. American empire pisses people off on its own too.

[Emerald]

4 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Why is Hamas declared a terrorist organiztion and the IDF is not?

Hamas is considered a terrorist organization because it does terror attacks on behalf of a non-sovereign group of people and not as an extension of an official military of a sovereign state.

The IDF isn't considered a terrorist organization because the atrocities the IDF commits are supported by an official military of a sovereign state.

That's really the main real distinction between a group classed as a terrorist group and an official state-sanctioned group that's committing atrocities.

So, it's not about the degree of ruthlessness that makes a group a terrorist group... it's the fact that it's not associated with a sovereign state's official military.

That's why terrorist groups tend to spring up in power vacuums as the "Shadow military that comes in when a people doesn't have an actual military". The oppression of a sovereign state over a non-sovereign people is the perfect breeding ground for terrorist groups to form.

And these groups tend to be quite violent, ruthless, and extreme.

Edited May 26 by Emerald

[Leo Gura]

Believe it or not, as bad as Israel is, they do not hijack airplanes nor invade Palestine in rampages shooting everyone in sight in the head. And their intelligence agencies DO take measures to avoid civilian casualities when planning assassinations. Civilians still end up killed, but efforts are made. Palestinians make no such efforts and even target civilians to take hostage.

Edited May 26 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Believe it or not, as bad as Israel is, they do not hijack airplanes nor invade Palestine in rampages shooting everyone in sight in the head. And their intelligence agencies DO take measures to avoid civilian casualities when planning assassinations. Civilians still end up killed, but efforts are made. Palestinians make no such efforts and even target civilians to take hostage.

this isn’t true. They’ve went on rampages slaughtering civilians by choice multiple times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibya_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafr_Qasim_massacre

they even have a military doctrine called the dahiya doctrine specifically designed to destroy civilian structures on purpose.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

Plus there are countless videos of individual instances of idf shooting civilians. And who knows how many not captured on video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqzE4hkuee4

https://x.com/btselem/status/1717554938337701929

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/mar/19/israeli-troops-gaza-shootings-civilians

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/10/video-appears-show-cheers-israeli-sniper-shoots-palestinian

They are literally starving 2 million people at this point by blocking all food and medicine. How is that avoiding civilian casualties?

Israel arrests civilian Palestinians constantly, the majority of Palestinian men have spent time in prison. They’ve called their prisoners “bargaining chips” in the past. In fact most of the Palestinian prisoners israel has released so far weren’t charged with any crime, and many were women or minors. 

Edited May 26 by Raze

[Nivsch]

@Emerald The root intentions are fundamentaly different.

[Leo Gura]

47 minutes ago, Raze said:

They’ve went on rampages slaughtering civilians by choice multiple times.

Yes, that's part of the ethnic cleansing.

Zionists definitely do war crimes.

It's still different from what Jihadists do.

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

this isn’t true. They’ve went on rampages slaughtering civilians by choice multiple times.

Those events are either before IDF has established or in the 1950s, and even then, though criminal and reckless, aren't similar to the clear preplanned intentions to kill civillians we see in terror attacks. 

Edited May 26 by Nivsch

[Raze]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, that's part of the ethnic cleansing.

Zionists definitely do war crimes.

It's still different from what Jihadists do.

The main reason why countries like Israel can get away with it is because of these kinds of double standards.

[Raze]

6 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Those event are either before IDF has established or in the 1950s, and even than are, though criminal and reckless but aren't similar to the clear preplanned intentions to kill civillians we see in Terror attacks. 

The Qibya example linked there was clearly pre-planned retribution.

I already linked you a incident in 82 where they let a militia into a refugee camp to kill civilians on purpose.

The dahiya doctrine is an operational procedure targeting civilian structures.

I haven’t even seen proof oct 7 was a pre-planned massacre of civilians, as far as we know they werent aware the festival was happening, so far it’s unclear how many of the civilians were killed by Hamas as opposed to other groups or the Hannibal directive. I don’t see how that’s morally any different than the documented reports of Israel bombing civilian structures in Gaza or shooting unarmed civilians carrying white flags, which was before this current war. 
 

The current war is so beyond any of this it’s ridiculous to even draw a comparison btw. Even if you disagree about the past examples I linked it is insane you are still under the delusion that the current war is avoiding civilian casualties in any shape or form. I don’t know what more possible evidence can be given this is not the case if the overwhelming amount of current evidence, literally to the point where every major human rights organization and international law organization is saying this.

Edited May 26 by Raze

[Nivsch]

Just now, Raze said:

I haven’t even seen proof oct 7 was a pre-planned massacre of civilians

I have lost you here. Think what you want.