Leo, do you think that Democrats should support right-wing economic policies?

[Schizophonia]

Never never never.

 

Never let the Obertone window move towards the opponent for electoral reasons, it is a very bad long-term plan.

[PolyPeter]

Damn

Not knowing what Truth is will make people say dumb shit.

I think maybe a new video on what Absolute Truth is could be a good reinforcement!

[Emerald]

17 hours ago, zazen said:

@kbone @Nivsch 

Psychology is downstream from biology,

I'm not so sure that that assumption is true, given the fact that belonging within a community is the foundational need of the human being (as it is the need that all other biological and psychological needs have always been met through).

And socialization within community contexts relates far more to psychological matters than to directly biological matters.

My experience has been that psychology trumps biology in most cases and that we end up far more influenced by our software than by our hardware, as a result of having a very complex pre-frontal cortex to adapt within social dynamics.

Let's take Anorexia, as an example of an instance where psychology trumps biology. Biologically the body is wired up to need and eat food. But a psychological condition, like Anorexia can override that biological process.

There are similar instances where psychology trumps biology relative to attraction and sexuality, where a person will be drawn to another person because they sense a repeat of familial dynamics.

Or if we take the need for sex more generally, most people are seeking it out for more than just reproduction... with drivers towards belonging, connection, love, status, validation, etc.

[Norbert Somogyi]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

I'm not so sure that that assumption is true, given the fact that belonging within a community is the foundational need of the human being (as it is the need that all other biological and psychological needs have always been met through).

And socialization within community contexts relates far more to psychological matters than to directly biological matters.

My experience has been that psychology trumps biology in most cases and that we end up far more influenced by our software than by our hardware, as a result of having a very complex pre-frontal cortex to adapt within social dynamics.

Let's take Anorexia, as an example of an instance where psychology trumps biology. Biologically the body is wired up to need and eat food. But a psychological condition, like Anorexia can override that biological process.

There are similar instances where psychology trumps biology relative to attraction and sexuality, where a person will be drawn to another person because they sense a repeat of familial dynamics.

Or if we take the need for sex more generally, most people are seeking it out for more than just reproduction... with drivers towards belonging, connection, love, status, validation, etc.

Fair points! Allow me to share my own view on this.

You could make the case that psychology can't exist without biology, but biology can exist without psychology. The situation however is more nuanced in our case, since we have both at our disposal. The examination of their relationship instead, is an interesting and fruitful endeavor.

I believe this is rather a matter of perspective and context. Our brains seemingly have evolved for us to be social, because this increased the likelihood of our survival the most. They are unusually large in proportion to our body size, which is not often seen in the animal kingdom. Cooperation, language, abstract thinking, socialization are consequential frameworks that required the additional brain matter to form. The default mode is to be social (except in a select few), and the loneliness epidemic may be a symptom of us distancing ourselves from each other at least in developed countries (especially in urban areas, where people are paradoxically living the closest to each other). I'd also tie Maslow into this, especially the basic needs on the pyramid. Without water, food, warmth, a roof above your head (physical safety) and even sex (which appears on the whole pyramid in different flavors), I wouldn't think socialization would be a top priority in one's mind. They are interdependent and when biological meets are met, then the social needs arise. On the other hand, communities facilitate frameworks that ensure people's biological needs are consistently met.

Anorexia is a special case, and I'm not an expert on it. It really appears to be overriding biology. From my perspective, I think of it as biology seeking equilibrium - resulting in the self-perpetuation of this image - accompanied with a low body and emotional awareness. I'd consider people suffering from this to be truly head-centered, with feelings/sensations suppressed or misinterpeted. 

When it comes to sexuality and attraction, you do have a great point that overlaps with my personal experience. Its fascinating how we have some sort of sixth sense to sense out and attract certain people with familiar (or needed) dynamics without even having spoken a word to them. Does biology play a role in this? Most likely. Perhaps there is a biological system in our bodies and/or the brain from which this sense is born and fine-tuned. Psychology can help someone change the state of this sense (changing our attachment patterns from any type of dysfunctional to safe - through emotional&trauma work and maybe meditation). Biological factors definitely play a role especially in the phase of attraction - hormones for example. Relationships and their maintenance seemingly require more from the side of psychology than biology.

Finally, in my personal experience, modifying my hardware bore me bigger fruits than psychology ever did. You could say my years spent with inner work, in therapy, retreats, spirituality were the nutrients to the soil from which the fruits of my work could bore and grow. You could also say that without a faulty or low-energy hardware, all the time someone spends in therapy could be running in circles with seldom breakthroughs and step-ups. In my case both are valid. 

Since I've been experimenting with supplements (that definitely override some of my physiology given my drastic improvements and consistently elevated state of mental well-being, as well as the unfilteredness between me and my emotions). It's like I've reached a point in my self-development which I thought were years of work away, but here I am opening up to myself and to the world. Curious to read your thoughts!

[kbone]

@Mannyb

I wrote a few paragraphs in reply to you using the caterpillar --> cocoon -->butterfly metaphor to eventually circle back to some butterflies might resonate. I even included a few allusions to social/political stuff, just to help it rez with the thread's central subject. But for some reason, the website's system kicked me out and the message was lost. I'm quite busy today, and perhaps you are, too.

But, if you wouldn't mind (and if you have time), would you be willing to write how your journey to Presence might be analogized using the same metaphor? I'm curious about how your expression might 'align' with mine, with respect to resonance. If you'd rather keep politics out of it, feel free to stick in some other thread or start a different one... it's a great metaphor, after all.

🐛Peacely 🦋

Edited May 9 by kbone

[Gidiot]

I personally like it when the democrats stand up for trans rights, it shows me they have a spine and they actually believe in something, unlike much of Kamala’s campaign running away from taking a hard stance on anything- (gaza, trans rights, Medicare for all(not even a public option!)).

while I agree with Leo’s stand on truth I find it somewhat contradictory to be all for truth at any cost.

but then to be all for what’s realistic and can be implemented in reality based on the political climate.

 Shouldn’t it not matter what’s politically viable and only what the highest truth and good is?
 

And if that’s delusional, then okay fine. but I think the left is less delusional than all these normies you’re talking about and obviously right wingers. 

if you’re anti trans I got a strong feeling you’re going to be on the wrong side of history and I don’t want to concede to you to win elections. I care about truth quite a lot too and I think the truth is that these people just want to exist and benefit in society just as anyone else. 
 

what Joe Larry and Ken think is irrelevant to me since they lack basic human empathy and are voting off of “vibes”. 
 

I mean do you seriously want to means test your platform off of what some random guy or gal thinks about tampons in a restroom? Is that a serious person. You say the elites should rule Leo and I tend to agree with you. Well the elites with empathy for trans people should overrule the ones without

[kbone]

6 hours ago, Emerald said:

I'm not so sure that that assumption is true, given the fact that belonging within a community is the foundational need of the human being (as it is the need that all other biological and psychological needs have always been met through).

And socialization within community contexts relates far more to psychological matters than to directly biological matters.

My experience has been that psychology trumps biology in most cases and that we end up far more influenced by our software than by our hardware, as a result of having a very complex pre-frontal cortex to adapt within social dynamics.

Let's take Anorexia, as an example of an instance where psychology trumps biology. Biologically the body is wired up to need and eat food. But a psychological condition, like Anorexia can override that biological process.

There are similar instances where psychology trumps biology relative to attraction and sexuality, where a person will be drawn to another person because they sense a repeat of familial dynamics.

Or if we take the need for sex more generally, most people are seeking it out for more than just reproduction... with drivers towards belonging, connection, love, status, validation, etc.

"the fact that belonging within a community is the foundational need of the human being" - Would you agree that it is "a" foundational need, but there is/are others that may enhance an individual's (I) contributions to the group's (we)? If so, what might those others be? After all, in my experience, there are times when the 'need' to belong falls away when an inexplicable calling lures one away and into a more profound sense of existence that a/the group was either (presently) incapable or unwilling to even contemplate. Interestingly, imo, it is important to the 'larger whole or a larger set of groups' that that calling even happens and is acted upon (holonic integration/health).

"My experience has been that psychology trumps biology in most cases and that we end up far more influenced by our software"- I agree with this in that mind is the filter via which biology is interpreted and influenced. What would you say is the source of psychological dis-ease with one's body/environment? I treat psychology as a 'branch of mind' that yes, does involve the neo-cortex (akin to the story of the fall from the Garden of Eden and/or dis-ease with the world as it is), rather than simply the clear perception of the bio-physico world as it is. The neo-cortex is a neo-mammalian adaptation of the limbic system that was present (or less pronounced) in the paleo-mammalian one (See MacLean's 'Triune Brain' theory stuff). So, yes, it is highly influential in the development of addictions/disorders (i.e., sex addictions, drugs, eating disorders), which one doesn't see in the animal world.

 

[Mannyb]

@Daniel Balan

Exactly—history is a brutal teacher, and WWII showed how fanaticism and dehumanization lead to self-destruction. ☠️ 
The Nazis’ failure to ally with anti-communist groups out of pure ideological hatred was a fatal strategic error. 😣 

 

The lesson isn’t that one wing is always better—it’s that dogma kills wisdom.
The most powerful stance is to be a “wizard” 🧙‍♂️ —to see beyond left and right, and respond with clarity, not ideology. 🤲🏼 

 

Reality isn’t binary, and neither should be our politics!

 

[Daniel Balan]

@Mannyb Yes but between the left and the right! The left is by far better and more humane! Right wing is defined by hatred, domination, exploatation, might makes right! The right is the synonim for stage red and the left is the synonim for stage blue! Both have excesses but the right has much more negative aspects than positive aspects! The left's only problem is that no one is as developed as they are and their policies backfire in their face! The left has much more positives, though some of the negatives like expropriation of land to share with the poor and gay parades everywhere are weighing very heavily when it comes to very big downsides

[Mannyb]

@kbone
 

I’d be honored.

Here’s how I’d share my journey to Presence through the caterpillar → cocoon → butterfly metaphor:

 

Caterpillar

At first, I was all appetite—chasing knowledge, success, recognition.

Life was a checklist: grow, win, become.

Truth is, I was lost. Quietly anxious.
Always reaching.

The world told me speed meant progress, so I ran—fast and blind.

Even spirituality, back then, was just another topic. Interesting, sure—but distant. A conversation topic. Not a home.

 

Cocoon

Then came the unraveling.

Stillness wasn’t noble—it was inevitable. Something broke, or maybe I did.

A failure, a weariness that wouldn’t lift.

Suddenly I wasn’t growing, I was gone.

The noise I’d outrun for years caught up.

And in the dark, I met myself—not the polished version, but the tender, trembling one. An innocent 😇 child.

No answers. Only breath. Only now.

 

Butterfly

Presence didn’t arrive with a bang—it was what was left when striving fell away. 🤲🏼

The mind stopped needing to grasp light and started letting it in. 🧘‍♂️ 

Wings came quietly.
Not to escape, but to feel, land, bless.

Not everything needs to be fought.
Things just want to be witnessed.

 

And maybe that’s the bridge to politics, too.

When we forget the hungry caterpillar we were—or deny the cocoon we resist—we cling to certainty and call it truth.

But those who’ve surrendered to transformation know:

Flight only comes when we stop trying to fly.

 

With love and breath, always—

Peacely,

🦋

 

Edited May 9 by Mannyb

[Mannyb]

@Daniel Balan
 

I hear you, and I deeply respect the care for humanity behind what you’re expressing. 🤗 

 

It’s true—the left often moves from a place of compassion, seeking to protect the vulnerable and expand inclusion.
And yes, the right, especially in its more hardened expressions, can feel rooted in fear, control, and resistance to change.

 

What’s most needed now isn’t more weighing of which side is better, but a return to what lies beneath both: our shared human longing for safety, dignity, and belonging.

 

Peace doesn’t take sides—it invites wholeness. The real task is not to prove one wing is right, but to grow the heart that can hold the entire bird. 🕊️ 

 

May we walk forward, not as opponents in ideology, but as companions in healing. ❤️‍🩹 

 

[Daniel Balan]

@Mannyb I am not ideological at all, but I have a bias for the left because when the left proposes a policy is with equality and care for all in mind, but when the right proposes a policy is either to send migrants to death camps, to deregulate and reduce all taxes on all business, to cut all government spending for social issues, to destroy all the welfare policies, to concentrate the power into the hands of few powerful elites who lord over the masses! Sure, there have been left wing dictatorships in the past, but at their core, in soviet russia the communist regime gave land to every one who didn't have! At least they tried to do something to reduce inequality! Although in my opinion that was a wrong move because the people lost all incentives for innovation and profit because the state owned everything! Plus I would also hate if right now I would be forced to share my land with someone else! I don't want other people's land, so those other people shouldn't want whats mine! The left wing can be over correcting and over egalitarian, we as people get happines by competing, and there isn't room for competition if everybody is rewarded with the same rewards regardless of their output!

Edited May 9 by Daniel Balan

[Mannyb]

@Daniel Balan

Thank you for sharing so openly — I can feel that your values are rooted in fairness, care, and a genuine desire for balance.
It’s true that the left often speaks in the language of equality and collective upliftment, and that resonates deeply with many of us who want a kinder, more inclusive world.
At the same time, your awareness of the flaws — the danger of erasing individual motivation or forcing sameness — shows you’re not blindly ideological, but seeking something more nuanced.

 

It’s powerful that you can recognize both the moral intent and the practical shortcomings on all sides.
Maybe the deeper challenge isn’t left or right, but how we preserve dignity and incentive while also ensuring no one is left behind.
Real wisdom, I think, lies in holding both: honoring personal effort and freedom, while also ensuring systems are compassionate and just.

 

If we can keep our hearts open and minds sharp, maybe we can create something beyond ideology — a society that reflects the best of both care and courage, unity and uniqueness.

 

[Daniel Balan]

@Mannyb Much love brother! You have a beautiful mind!

[Mannyb]

@Daniel Balan
 

Much love to you too, brother.
Grateful for your presence and the resonance we share.

 

Here’s to minds that seek truth—and hearts that know it.

 

[Daniel Balan]

@Mannyb <3

[Emerald]

On 5/8/2025 at 4:48 PM, Schizophonia said:

Never never never.

 

Never let the Obertone window move towards the opponent for electoral reasons, it is a very bad long-term plan.

100%

That's my exact argument that I was having with Leo the other day.

And it applies both economically and socially... as any concession to the opponent's framing will strengthen the opponent and weaken yourself.

Any time you go "Okay, I can see how economic Populism is a bit extreme." or "Okay, I see how the acceptance of trans people is something that most people find weird."... you've already done the opponent's job for you.

And the opponent's job is to make their side look as normal and reasonable as possible and to frame the opposite side's perspective and goofy, out of touch, and weird.

I swear... people who are slightly left of center don't understand power one single bit. And so many of them will do the opposition's dirty work and propagandizing for them on principle and out of a "let's be philosophically committed to truth and meet in the middle... and be deliberately looking for the most fringe expressions of the left so that we can show how honest and normal we are."

But it's like dividing your own side and throwing the game to the opposition on purpose just to score an empty philosophical victory, while people continue to suffer and the forces of corruption proliferate.

Edited May 9 by Emerald

[kbone]

@Mannyb

Very coolio. Yeah, we probably rez on a number of things, in light of what you shared. I'll try to reply more later when my brain is a bit less mush from a detail-driven day.

🦋

[Basman]

On 08/05/2025 at 8:07 AM, zazen said:

That’s the issue in America - everything has to be a spectacle and become idealogical. Veganism, lgbtq etc etc. They can’t just be allowed to exist organically, it must be imposed, elevated and pledged allegiance to.

Hitting the nail on the head. Americans are so annoying for this. It always has to be this irrational ideological battle.

[kbone]

@Basman

Puritanical tendencies likely persist in US culture via values like self-reliance, moral rigor, and a strong sense of community that is often rooted in religious beliefs and the subsequent moral compass. So yeah, they often come across as thinking they know it all or are in the right (i.e., so competing ideas must be defeated), hehe. These values have been secularized and adapted from perhaps their Puritan roots, influencing American social and political life to this day. Interestingly, the individual achievement born of the sub-structure of such beliefs provides the basis for the resistance to social change that challenges the aforementioned established value system, which often take odd forms, to be sure. All-in-all, culture changes quite slowly anywhere you go, and each have their own unique stylistic tendencies that must be negotiated in one's mind if one travels to or live within it. That's kinda snorta wat the 'culture shock' models refer to when talking about adaptation. But, yes, ANY large group of 'others' with highly salient cultural features can be annoying, hehe. It's just how mind works: point of views congeal, preferences take form, arguments/blame arise, things are taken to the Nth degree, etc etc.

Edited May 12 by kbone