Leo, do you think that Democrats should support right-wing economic policies?

[Nivsch]

@Emerald Can reframing work long term?

I think that structural thinking patterns will overshadow any reframing you will throw on them, and will reshape it back.

The Great Again idea is succeding because a legitimate concern of loosing the American identity that shaped the culture for many decades, and less because right wing propaganda.

Try to do a reframing to a thinking pattern you personally have about yourself. Will it change it dramatically?

Also, the right wing try to manipulate the other side and not to truly listen to it, I feel this isn't a healthy strategy long term.

[Emerald]

29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Socialism and weird gender stuff IS bad framing. But it's more than that. It's bad framing because it is also bad utopian policy.

People don't want utopian dreams. They want practical survival stuff.

Again this goes back to the simple principle of: read the room.

Leave the goofy shit at the door. Drag shows for kids or defund the police are examples of goofy shit.

Of course if you frame it as "Our policy position is drag shows for kids." people aren't going to moved towards supporting politicians who run on that platform... nor is any politician actually doing so.

That's just another right wing talking point that's like "Kamala and Joe Biden support drag shows for kids." and you're proliferating it and doing their propaganda job for them.

So, that's not what I'm talking about or disagreeing with.

I'm disagreeing with you conceding to the rightwing framing with regards to social issues and framing those as "woke goofy stuff", when it's actually about asserting the values of freedom and acceptance... and a rejection of authoritarian control over social issues and personal choices.

All that does is weaken the left and strengthen the right when you cede this ground to them and put an arbitrary dividing line between protecting social freedoms and economic populism... because you can't really have one without the other.

It's like Neo-Nazi women who complain about misogyny in right wing spaces. Don't expect gender equality in your ethnostate, lady!

Similarly, don't expect normalized transphobia in your anti-corruption Social Democracy movement of the people.

Edited May 7 by Emerald

[Hardkill]

53 minutes ago, aurum said:

Propaganda and media manipulation favors the right-wing.

Progressives will not win at that game.

Liberals and centrists used to dominate the media environment before the rise of the right-wing media ecosystem beginning in the 1990s.

[Daniel Balan]

@Emerald I think that the democrats should still focus on woke gender stuff but a bit less than they already do and start to talk more about the hardships and the exploitation that the blue collar workers are facing! I mean focus 10% of the time on gender issues and 90% of the time on stuff that matters! I think the dems should focus all their effort helping the blue collar workers, helping unions, busting corporate overreach! As a blue collar worker myself I feel extreme rage if I would hear non stop about gender issues and nothing about helping me not be a literal slave for my employer without any help from the government! 

[zazen]

@Emerald @Leo Gura Leo is correct that it is goofy shit. Just like the right wing has goofy shit. What strengthens a movement more: clinging to ideological purity and alienating the majority, or correcting your own side’s blind spots so it actually resonates with more people?

To be honest, both parties alienate a sizable and sensible portion of the population - its just that people only get two choices and so have to pick which bag of goofy they're willing to give oxygen to for the next 4 years.

The lefts framework treats every boundary or constraint on freedom as oppression.  It’s allergic to tradeoffs - allergic to the idea that some freedoms must be constrained in order to protect larger freedoms - not as tyranny but as stewardship. This is why China wins bigly - because they aren't tripping over themselves playing a tango of ideology like in the West. If they even have one its just whateverworksim lol. 

The left demands fairer outcomes like healthcare, housing, economic justice and security - but can’t reconcile that structural authority is required to implement them. They dislike China not necessarily because of its values, which in some ways align with their policy goals - but because of its structure. They see authority and conflate it with tyranny.

The lefts contradiction: they want more fairer socialist outcomes (greater freedoms), but can’t accept the systems or actions (constraints on freedom) that make those outcomes possible.  

Civilization doesn’t run on anarchy (total freedom) but on order (constrained freedom) which is the middle way towards the other extreme of tyranny (total constraint). That requires leadership, which requires a position of authority to steward that ship, which has hierarchy baked in as a feature and not a bug. Obviously this feature becomes a bug when those within the hierarchy dominate and crush those lower within it like bugs.

Systems and hierarchies are more so neutral, except the actors within them. Those actors actions are downstream from a cultural and civilisational DNA.  For example, in China, leadership isn’t seen as a mere position of power but carries the weight of the “Mandate of Heaven” a Confucian concept that frames authority as sacred stewardship rather than rulership over the people. 

Contrast this to the West which has a history and cultural memory of centralized power lending itself to tyranny - hence a suspicion of authority itself. Never mind the philosophic-cultural foundation of elevating individual liberty over collective harmony.

English liberalism rejected the divine right of kings, the French Revolution decapitated kings, and the American Revolution rebelled against a British monarchy made up of kings and queens.

The West fears authority because it remembers tyranny. The East respects authority because it remembers stewardship.

Every functional system - families, corporations, governments - need authorship and stewardship. The question isn’t whether authority exists, but what kind of authority and who wields it. Conflating all authority with oppressive tyranny is the lefts blind spot - abusing authority is the rights.

The macro civilisational blind spot and predicament of the West: the scale, complexity, and fragility of modern civilization require high-trust systems, capable stewardship-authority, and collective discipline. But its cultural DNA rooted in a distrust of authority, individual primacy, and perpetual critique, has no spiritual or philosophical infrastructure to support the kind of leadership its system now demands.

A X thread that prompted these thoughts for me:

Edited May 7 by zazen

[Apparition of Jack]

The problem is that the Right overrwhelmingly has horrible economic policies (destroying social security, neglecting infrastructure, tax breaks for the elites, etc) but they use culture war noise to keep people from voting in their material self-interest.

Ive always been of the opinion that 90% of politics is material - people generally speaking don’t care about if you’re gay, trans, a minority etc, all they really want to know is will their kids have a good life and will they be able to pay the bills.

Republicans don’t offer that. They offer the exact opposite. MAGA conservativism is a death cult that demands the blood sacrifice of countless working peoples on the high altar of Greed. 
 

Until most Americans realise that, countless people will go bankrupt, homeless, go into medical debt, develop chronic illnesses, fall into crime, drug abuse, prostitution, and even die as all the wealth in society is funnelled to a group of sadistic sociopaths at the top. It’s like the collapse of the USSR but a million times worse, because this time it’s self-inflicted. 
 

God Americans are stupid. Sorry. End rant.

[Clarence]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's sorta my position.

Not conversative in the regressive sense, but in the grounded, pragmatic, realistic sense. Stop wasting energy on silly utopian ideas like chicks with dicks being equal in sports to women

Quote

Leave the goofy shit at the door. Drag shows for kids, or men having periods, or defund the police are examples of goofy shit.

Hey @Leo Gura,

I understand the point you're making in politics, and I agree with you — it's actually common sense to me also.

But why use terms that are derogatory to trans people? I feel like you're not respecting the integrity of trans individuals when speaking this way, and that can be harmful, especially since you lead a group and it signals that showing a lack of respect towards trans people is okay.

I believe that is not your intent (at least, I hope so), but to me, that's how it can come across.

Neither the Left nor the trans community should advocate for unrealistic, utopian ideas, and they should be much more balanced and grounded in reality. But trans people still deserve respect (not being called 'chicks with dicks' or 'men having periods', even if your aim is to emphasize the Right's point of view and the excesses coming from the Left).

Many trans people can understand this and don't try to push such ideas forward. I never did either. So I think it's important to keep a respectful tone. Using terms that are inflammatory or dismissive of people's integrity can cause a lot of damage, both to individuals and to the broader context.

I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make and will consider it. As you're the prime example here, if you show the forum that it is okay to speak this way about trans people, it implicitly gives everyone the license to do the same freely, which I don't believe is right. Those terms are too demeaning to be used lightly.

[Leo Gura]

@Clarence I understand your point. I was trying to underscore the goofiness vibe of this issue.

Politics is all about striking the right vibe. There are serious vibe problems with the trans issue.

For example, tampon dispensers in men's bathrooms is a huge vibe problem. And I feel that leftists do not appreciate this vibe problem enough. And then snowflakery on this matter makes leftists very vulnerable to exploitation by right wingers.

I understand leftists just want minorities to be respected. But this will not happen so easily.

Whether you like it or not, "chicks with dicks" is how much of the voting public sees the trans issue.

Edited May 7 by Leo Gura

[The Crocodile]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Whether you like it or not, "chicks with dicks" is how much of the voting public sees the trans issue.

Oh yeah I have a big dick but using it isn't really my thing you know

[Apparition of Jack]

@Leo Gura You’re technically correct, and if I’m being completely honest with myself I’m guilty of being off-put by things like tampons in men’s bathrooms, but you could also argue that just showing basic respect even on discussion forums will normalise queer identities more and lay the groundwork for acceptance down the line, right? 
 

Like, just on a personal level, I’ve overcome a lot of my own biases towards trans / gay people just by listening to grounded, respectful language about them and not just reducing them to silly jokes, even if they’re not meant to be malicious. We might not have widespread social acceptance for trans people today but if we continue to treat them like full human beings maybe in 10-20 years down the line their existence won’t seem so weird. Be the change you want to see in the world and all that, no?

Edited May 7 by Apparition of Jack

[Yimpa]

35 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

treat them like full human beings

What do you mean by "full human beings"?

[Apparition of Jack]

27 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

What do you mean by "full human beings"?

Well, as full people and not just the butt of a joke / shallow stereotypes. Think the difference between “trans woman” and “girl with a dick” for instance.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Well, as full people and not just the butt of a joke / shallow stereotypes. Think the difference between “trans woman” and “girl with a dick” for instance.

But we stereotype all people.

"White boy", cracker, Tech bro, hot girl, fatty, hippie, fuck boy, frat boy, bimbo, himbo, bum, cuck, Libtard, geek, nerd, nigga, grifter, etc.

You're not going to stop that.

Edited May 7 by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Clarence I understand your point. I was trying to underscore the goofiness vibe of this issue.

Politics is all about striking the right vibe. There are serious vibe problems with the trans issue.

For example, tampon dispensers in men's bathrooms is a huge vibe problem. And I feel that leftists do not appreciate this vibe problem enough. And then snowflakery on this matter makes leftists very vulnerable to exploitation by right wingers.

I understand leftists just want minorities to be respected. But this will not happen so easily.

Whether you like it or not, "chicks with dicks" is how much of the voting public sees the trans issue.

But the point is that NO ONE is putting tampon dispensers in men's bathrooms.

That was a lie that the right wing created to smear Tim Walz.

And now, you're doing their propagandizing for them like a fool!

Stop conceding to right wing talking points and framing! 

Instead, stick with a common sense approach and be like "Stop being obsessed with trans people. Just let people live their lives."

[Emerald]

11 hours ago, zazen said:

@Emerald @Leo Gura Leo is correct that it is goofy shit. Just like the right wing has goofy shit.

Which sounds goofier to you...

- People should mind their own business and accept people's differences.

OR

- The trans people are coming to trans your kids and sneaking into women's bathrooms! Trans people are a sign of the decline of Western Civilization!!!!!

It all depends on how you're framing it.

And so far, there's a lot of guys in this comment section (including Leo) who keep conceding to the right wing framing that poses basic social freedoms as goofy.

And you guys keep stating that Democrats are too focused on trans issues... when they very much are not.

But it doesn't matter how much Kamala Harris or Joe Biden didn't talk about trans people, they keep getting tarred and feathered as unserious people who are trying to put litterboxes in classroom.

And you can't win by distancing yourself from trans people, because it just concedes to the right wing framing on the issue.

Instead, you have to be the adult in the room and be like "Yes, we accept people who are different from us. And we mind our business. AND we respect people's personal freedoms to do whatever they feel is right as long as it doesn't harm others... unlike the other side that wants to control you."

[Leo Gura]

32 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But the point is that NO ONE is putting tampon dispensers in men's bathrooms.

That was a lie that the right wing created to smear Tim Walz.

I'm pretty sure that if leftists had carte blanche they would put tampon dispensers in men's bathrooms.

Not that I personally care. It's just bad vibes and bad optics in terms of winning elections.

Just because you are a sane leftist Emerald, doesn't mean there aren't unhinged leftists out there.

Edited May 7 by Leo Gura

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura Where I am from they put tampons in all men’s rooms in public all town buildings like libraries. - Canada, in my province.

Edited May 7 by Thought Art

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Leo Gura Where I am from they put tampons in all men’s rooms in public all town buildings like libraries. - Canada, in my province.

You serious?

[Raze]

This is one reason why I don’t want AOC to run. Even if she abandons the woke stuff, their are enough clips of her that can be used against her, like they did to Kamala. Sadly outside of AOC I don’t see any other progressive with the clout to win the primary and withstand the establishment efforts to tank them. 

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura

“In Nova Scotia, workplaces are required to provide free menstrual products, including tampons, in all toilet rooms, regardless of their gender designation. This includes men's washrooms. The Nova Scotia Legislature's Bill 154 outlines this requirement, emphasizing that employers must provide access to these products without charge in all workplace toilet facilities used by menstruating people. “ - Leo AI