Who Here Has Children?

[Rigel]

29 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

I bring that up? When someone tells you for 5 years now as I earlier recall, that you enslave others, you are the sole reason why there is suffering on earth, you create junk and pollute the planet, that you are the devil and so on. Now tell me, what other solution can those teachings lead to? Leo never encouraged anybody to do self harm or suicide, on the contrary, he always told us to not do that. But his teachings have always left me with an after taste in my mouth of killing myself. He made me realize that I am indeed the devil and I thank him for that, but you have to draw the line somewhere! To me he crossed the line when he said that having a pet is slavery for the pet. With that statement, he made me feel like I should stop breathing also! Because I am also enslaving the oxygen to make my body function... I honestly love him for everything he thought us but sometimes he is downright making me jump off a cliff. STOP THAT. At least if he was right, but in that case he is dead wrong. 

You are inventing all of that as well. Your interpretation of what is going on with Leo’s teaching is just that, an interpretation. You are creating hell for yourself as you are projecting all of that.

A solution you ask? For what? Why would reality have to change in any way?

The irony is it’s the devil that wants to get rid of the devil.

Leo crossed a line you arbitrarily created out of nothing & which you use to morally flagellate yourself.

[Daniel Balan]

23 minutes ago, Rigel said:

You are inventing all of that as well. Your interpretation of what is going on with Leo’s teaching is just that, an interpretation. You are creating hell for yourself as you are projecting all of that.

A solution you ask? For what? Why would reality have to change in any way?

The irony is it’s the devil that wants to get rid of the devil.

Leo crossed a line you arbitrarily created out of nothing & which you use to morally flagellate yourself.

Don't make me to go search for every time Leo said that mankind is evil, that everyone is evil. And that everyone is the devil. Interpretation of what? When someone calls you a devil what is there to interpret? For real now. I've read the blog for over 5 years, and I watch almost daily for his comments on the forum, and for the most part that's what I recall of being said. I do agree with him though! But I have my lines and when crossed I react. All lines are arbitrary! And is not out of nothing. It is out of something which deeply bothers me! Claiming you value truth yet spread BS is a line I will not let anyone cross. Especially someone who I love and I deeply respect as Leo! Right now I'm broke AF but I can't wait to get a job and to throw some money at Leo! I've never contributed to him and I feel like a thief for not supporting him financially for such amount of value that he is giving us.

Edited January 18 by Daniel Balan

[Yimpa]

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[NewKidOnTheBlock]

@RendHeaven @Leo Gura Unless there's a bad treatment involved, it cannot be considered slavery. Restricting freedom of another human being is not the same as restricting freedom of an animal, because for example a well functioning normal human, even if you are taking good care of him/her, you are still doing that human harm by vastly limiting their potential. Animals don't have the same potential as humans, not even by a longshot.

Humans = potential, animals = no potential. That's the real difference. In the latter case restriction of freedom should actually be defined as a symbiotic relationship because we are offering value to the animals and they are giving us some value back, and there's zero harm being done to either side. Yes, farming animals would be slavery. Animals in zoos could also be considered slaves because their real potential is actualized in wild nature. But the kind of animals @Daniel Balan was showing us on photos would die on their own (with the exception of cats, which is not a slave even by the standard definition of slavery, as in, being restricted freedom, because cat can escape from you at any time if it wished to do so. They are with you voluntarily)

Bottom line is, I feel the topic is a bit more complicated and nuanced than you guys portray it to be.

[Salvijus]

A slave is someone who does work for you against their will. What if you have pets and they do nothing for you but you are doing things for them to fulfill their needs? Then it's love. Some cases are different tho. 

Edited January 18 by Salvijus

[NewKidOnTheBlock]

Also would you consider humans that are mentally challenged your slaves just cause you are restricting their freedom to take care of them? For example, people with severe autism. I don't think so. Potential is clearly an important factor to consider

Edited January 18 by NewKidOnTheBlock

[Vibes]

33 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

A slave is someone who does work for you against their will. What if you have pets and they do nothing for you but you are doing things for them to fulfill their needs? Then it's love. Some cases are different tho. 

They are serving to fullfil your emotional needs. 

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, Vibes said:

They are serving to fullfil your emotional needs. 

Sometimes. It's case by case situation. Plus they are not forced into that role imo. That's a game changer. 

[Soullee]

No children, everybody keep telling me I'm missing out on the joy of having kids. I feel like having child is strong attachment that keep you stuck to this reality. Like you feel like you have parts of you in here and it will stuck with your being. Like even force to reincarnate, since you the reason a soul brought to this world. Now you soul is been brought back. I don't know just how my mind works

[integral]

24 minutes ago, Soullee said:

No children, everybody keep telling me I'm missing out on the joy of having kids. I feel like having child is strong attachment that keep you stuck to this reality. Like you feel like you have parts of you in here and it will stuck with your being. Like even force to reincarnate, since you the reason a soul brought to this world. Now you soul is been brought back. I don't know just how my mind works

Imagine waking without ever having gone to sleep. That's the insanity of birth. 

[RendHeaven]

9 hours ago, Daniel Balan said:

She could easily jump the fence and go wherever she wanted. And she did that all the time! But she never left my household for more than a day! If I am the enslaver.. why didn't those beings run the hell away from me?

Domesticated animals are genetically bred to prefer their slave conditions.

This issue of slavery goes far deeper than your individual actions, it's a collective human web.

Acknowledging your "slaving ways" does not make you a nefarious progenitor of evil. It's more like being a willing participant in collective selfishness maximization.

9 hours ago, Daniel Balan said:

Guys I tell you! You are deluded and think you know everything about reality just because you took few shrooms or LSD or other psychedelics.

Or, you are close minded. How can we tell the difference?

Really contemplate that. "I'm obviously right and you're obviously wrong" is begging the question.

It looks like you're not really engaging with the step by step breakdowns I've written for you on the meta-abstract mechanism of "slavery"

Your disagreement boils down to "I don't like how that word makes me feel so everything you say must be BS"

9 hours ago, Daniel Balan said:

Go live in the real world enjoy mother nature sober!

Not mutually exclusive with psychedelic contemplation lol : )

9 hours ago, Daniel Balan said:

With your contemplation and false assumptions you only cause confusion.

Please spell out any "false assumptions" you spot.

[RendHeaven]

9 hours ago, NewKidOnTheBlock said:

Unless there's a bad treatment involved, it cannot be considered slavery.

Sounds like something a slave owner would say.

9 hours ago, NewKidOnTheBlock said:

Humans= potential, animals = no potential.

Self-serving distinction.

9 hours ago, NewKidOnTheBlock said:

Bottom line is, I feel the topic is a bit more complicated and nuanced than you guys portray it to be.

The position I have spelled out is full of nuance.

I've spelled out how slavery is a meta-principle on a spectrum with degrees.

All instances of what I call "slavery" have the commonality of restricting sovereignty and leeching personal gain, while differing in intensity and harm.

This gives a fuller picture of our inter/intra-species relationships.

Whereas the unnuanced position would be to label slavery as an exclusively bad thing and to pretend that we have nothing to do with it and that our practices must be justified and unquestionable. This is the stance of you and Dan. You draw a hard line in your mind which separates the notion of slavery from your daily unconscious practices, and you're prone to arguing fiercely that this line cannot be crossed and that anyone who dares to cross this line, like me or Leo, must be automatically wrong and deluded.

I actually don't have a position to defend here.

I don't care if I turn out to be a slave owner or not. I'm not mad either way. My sensemaking is unclouded.

9 hours ago, NewKidOnTheBlock said:

Yes, farming animals would be slavery. Animals in zoos could also be considered slaves because their real potential is actualized in wild nature. But the kind of animals @Daniel Balan was showing us on photos would die on their own

I'll say it again, but look:

the bottom line is - golden handcuffs are still handcuffs

they call it pet OWNERSHIP for a reason. It's baked into the language we use.

"I own a dog"

"I own a cat"

Try to contemplate the ramifications of that without bias.

The pet owner's benevolent nature is a deflection. Symbiosis is a deflection.

Slavery is fundamentally about OWNING OTHER BEINGS.

Contemplate ownership.

Edited January 19 by RendHeaven
I always manage to typo somehow lmao

[RendHeaven]

8 hours ago, NewKidOnTheBlock said:

Also would you consider humans that are mentally challenged your slaves just cause you are restricting their freedom to take care of them? For example, people with severe autism.

I have never heard anyone say "Oh him? Yeah, I own him" (in reference to helping an autistic kid)

Yet we're happy to say "Oh yeah! I own a cat! "

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Yet we're happy to say "Oh yeah! I own a cat! "

When I was a child doing philosophy I realized how unfair it is that I own my cat. So I tried to speak of my cat without saying "my" cat, so it didn't imply that I owned her. Only to realize that the English language does not lend itself to that.

Some of my early work on understanding human bias.

Edited January 19 by Leo Gura

[integral]

@Leo Gura looks like every parent here has used the epistemic incorrect vocabulary of "My children". Video title "Mother hood and slavery, one in the same". I'm sure it's going to be very popular.  😅

[Leo Gura]

Parents = Slavelords

Edited January 19 by Leo Gura

[Salvijus]

Something becomes yours when you take responsibility for them also. 

If it's yours by conquest, than it's slavery. 

If it's yours by inclusion, than it's love. 

You can make the whole world yours by taking responsibility for it. 

Edited January 19 by Salvijus

[ryoko]

I'm 22
Recently been thinking, how can anyone immersed in solipsism bring a child into a world. I mean, not unless they are bored.

Edited January 19 by ryoko

[ryoko]

And @Daniel Balan 
All domesticated animals became so after centuries of enslaving them from the wild. Technically they are slaves, but they are happy too. But that doesn't make animal rearing any less unethical, I mean, Leo certainly can't, but you can, until you can't anymore.

Don't forget human beings are beasts too, they just use the other animals in a cunning, self-deceiving way. Humans have built just too many systems, collective and individual, to a point where they forget they are animals, and they forget killing a human is nothing different from killing a chicken. Of course we kill to eat, to survive, sometimes we eliminate other humans who are too troublesome, and stay(stuck?) in tribes known as countries.

And everything humans do is an extension of their survival, even getting enlightened, is part of survival. If Leo doesn't realize the truth that animal rearing is slavery, it makes his life harder. And if you were to realize it, you won't be able to rear them anymore.

Getting enlightened and animal rearing is just the same, don't pay attention to anyone who says otherwise.

Edited January 19 by ryoko

[ryoko]

17 hours ago, Salvijus said:

A slave is someone who does work for you against their will

Very limited definition, slaves are those whose will is conditioned to be something just below their tolerance level, which is everything.

You being in a human body is slavery, what if you wanted to be an actual bird?