Communities of Shame - (Red Pill, Incels, MGTOW, etc.)

[Bobby_2021]

As far as people who do get sucked into these niche ideologies like red pill, incel etc most of it has to do with a lack of self awareness. 

They simply cannot look at themselves doing this shit.

Also a big part of the problem is also that it gets tied to your identity and you get mired into group think. This is why it's not a good idea to declare yourself belonging to any ideology, publicly. If you want to be a member of such groups do so in private and leave it when you exhausted the karma. You would feel no obligation to defend your position forever. 

[bebotalk]

Societal changes and dynamics have created a lost generation. 

Repillers need something to feel more masculine. And then come up with a theory that money leads to dating success, when plenty of poor people get dates - and mostly from women of a similar socio-economic status. 

Incels are lost in they have neurodiversity issues, or they they were not taught basic social norms or dynamics and act out.

MGTOW are also lost, and probably find they dont' "fit" in the modern world. 

[zazen]

Good and valid points from everyone including OP. Here is a interesting video with quite a bit of depth as to modern dating dynamics and the problems being faced:

 

Edited April 10 by zazen

[Lucasxp64]

On 09/04/2024 at 11:40 AM, Schizophonia said:

Most ugly men could save several thousand euros, even tens of thousands (after all a house costs a few hundred thousand) to undergo cosmetic

I'm average-looking, lower than average due to clothing, teeth (I need some braces) and bad grooming. I've been making that math in my head for a year now. Considering if the risks of a botched surgery would outweigh the benefits, just being realistic about my expectations. My health comes first, and I'll go to doctors with the highest rates of success.

A bad surgery can cost, going from average to looking a monster to the point I can't even get hired. The worst negative would be catastrophic.

I've been compiling info and weighing possibilities. But at the same time, I'm happy just the way I look with myself, and the only reason I'd do it is to improve dating life after I've maxed out soft improvements, and other improvements with no risk, but that might be costly: Geo-maxing, etc.

I don't know my genetic potential yet. I didn't do yet serious changes to my lifestyle and develop game. I can only judge that I had girls back in school that I found to be my type being interested in me even though I had zero game and my style and grooming sucked. I can't judge properly my own looks without experience. Because I only care about my looks as far as it gets me health, wealth and women... Some people let this shit get over their heads, and it becomes an existential threat to them, and destroys with their inner-game.

I know if I want high-quality women, I must offer at least absolutely relentless self-confidence on my looks. I'm seeding that on my mind already. But I'm realistic, only hundreds to thousands of approaches will lead me there, and learning to master it like I'd master a language: Thousands of hours of listening, thousands of hours of deliberate practice. But that's different, I'll need to be going out of my home, spending money at least on logistics, dates, hotels/private place.

I just see that, with enough money and free time, I can get in a healthy relationship with an 8/10, and I have somewhat relaxed standards (age, BMI levels, etc). But, I cannot truly see it shortly in my time horizon, and I can definitely sometimes see my mind coming up with Machiavellian plans to counter-balance lack of time, money and skill... Specially, lack of patience.

 

 

Edited April 10 by Lucasxp64

[Schizophonia]

6 minutes ago, Lucasxp64 said:

I'm average-looking, lower than average due to clothing, teeth (I need some braces) and bad grooming. I've been making that math in my head for a year now. Considering if the risks of a botched surgery would outweigh the benefits, just being realistic about my expectations. My health comes first, and I'll go to doctors with the highest rates of success.

A bad surgery can cost, going from average to looking a monster to the point I can't even get hired. The worst negative would be catastrophic.

I've been compiling info and weighing possibilities. But at the same time, I'm happy just the way I look with myself, and the only reason I'd do it is to improve dating life after I've maxed out soft improvements, and other improvements with no risk, but that might be costly: Geo-maxing, etc.

I don't know my genetic potential yet. I didn't do yet serious changes to my lifestyle and develop game. I can only judge that I had girls back in school that I found to be my type being interested in me even though I had zero game and my style and grooming sucked. I can't judge properly my own looks without experience. Because I only care about my looks as far as it gets me health, wealth and women... Some people let this shit get over their heads, and it becomes an existential threat to them, and destroys with their inner-game.

I know if I want high-quality women, I must offer at least absolutely relentless self-confidence on my looks. I'm seeding that on my mind already. But I'm realistic, only hundreds to thousands of approaches will lead me there.

I just see that, with enough money and free time, I can get in a healthy relationship with an 8/10, and I have somewhat relaxed standards (age, BMI levels, etc). But, I cannot truly see it shortly in my time horizon, and I can definitely sometimes see my mind coming up with Machiavellian plans to counter-balance lack of time, money and skill... Specially, lack of patience.

 

 

What's the point of your message ? Are you trying to saying me that you hesitate to do plastic surgery.

Start with the inner game, then if you are really very unattractive you can always find a good surgeon to do a bimax or something like that, depending on your face.
There is no risk in particular if the surgeons are competent, the most dangerous surgery is legs enlargement, but that has nothing to do with it.
"Geomax" is probably the most thankless option. 

Edited April 10 by Schizophonia

[Lucasxp64]

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

What's the point of your message ? Are you trying to saying me that you hesitate to do plastic surgery.

Start with the inner game, then if you are really very unattractive you can always find a good surgeon to do a bimax or something like that, depending on your face.
There is no risk in particular if the surgeons are competent, the most dangerous surgery is legs enlargement, but that has nothing to do with it.
"Geomax" is probably the most thankless option. 

I have to agree, geomax sucks... But I see it more as an extension of logistics. Being able to move across a region that I like already, i.e.: moving across the country/region if I were a digital nomad already, etc.

But yeah. I do hesitate, even if it's a 1% risk of complication. I'd be very conservative in cost-benefit ratio, it really got to be worth it.

A lot of people can get really unrealistic expectations of what they will get.

Even if I spend half a million in surgeries, due to the size of my skull and other features (my eyes are not deep inset), I'd look as good as Justin Bieber at best.

I want to focus on understanding the structural challenges first and addressing those first, the harmonization is important.

But I guess for me mostly some eye-lift, adding extra material for my jawline and checkbones, beyond my teeth and fixing my tongue-tie first. I'm not fat. I'm even slightly underweight. Most folks out there need to fucking lose weight, not some fucking implant, they don't even know what's underneath LOL.

Also, a lot of people want to just do facial injections/fillings, MRI scans showed that stuff stays for much longer than expected in the body, and it accumulates and makes their face puffy.

There are a lot of traps like that in plastic surgery. I just don't feel comfortable with my level of knowledge yet.

But for dudes that are just outliers in bad genetics and tried everything under the sun with their charisma, and game. Some specific precedures might be life-changing. But that stuff needs to be well-studied and followed true with some great surgeons. Some surgeons out there will just do pretty much anything they ask... Instead, that person would have benefited more of some other less invasive procedure to harmonize them. Sometimes, one feature gets improved, and it makes everything else look worse, etc.

Edited April 10 by Lucasxp64

[Ulax]

David Tian has great videos on this sort of topic imo.

Including this one:

Dude really changed the trajectory of my life.

[QVx]

On 09/04/2024 at 7:56 AM, Emerald said:

Thank you! I don't have specific examples of men in mind. But a good litmus test is how okay he is with just being himself without too much fixation upon being Masculine. And just allowing whatever happens to be there to be there.

And men who feel secure in themselves even in being kind, warm, tender, etc.

@Emerald, would you be able to find some examples to help support your view in this thread?

The main issue I think that is happening within this discussion is that many people are unable to approach what you’re saying from a conscious place.

Using examples would help bridge that misunderstanding by taking away theory and focusing more on reality.

I’m sure there are some great examples on YouTube, even if just in the form of clips.

[Schizophonia]

1 hour ago, Lucasxp64 said:

I have to agree, geomax sucks... But I see it more as an extension of logistics. Being able to move across a region that I like already, i.e.: moving across the country/region if I were a digital nomad already, etc.

But yeah. I do hesitate, even if it's a 1% risk of complication. I'd be very conservative in cost-benefit ratio, it really got to be worth it.

A lot of people can get really unrealistic expectations of what they will get.

Even if I spend half a million in surgeries, due to the size of my skull and other features (my eyes are not deep inset), I'd look as good as Justin Bieber at best.

I want to focus on understanding the structural challenges first and addressing those first, the harmonization is important.

But I guess for me mostly some eye-lift, adding extra material for my jawline and checkbones, beyond my teeth and fixing my tongue-tie first. I'm not fat. I'm even slightly underweight. Most folks out there need to fucking lose weight, not some fucking implant, they don't even know what's underneath LOL.

Also, a lot of people want to just do facial injections/fillings, MRI scans showed that stuff stays for much longer than expected in the body, and it accumulates and makes their face puffy.

There are a lot of traps like that in plastic surgery. I just don't feel comfortable with my level of knowledge yet.

But for dudes that are just outliers in bad genetics and tried everything under the sun with their charisma, and game. Some specific precedures might be life-changing. But that stuff needs to be well-studied and followed true with some great surgeons. Some surgeons out there will just do pretty much anything they ask... Instead, that person would have benefited more of some other less invasive procedure to harmonize them. Sometimes, one feature gets improved, and it makes everything else look worse, etc.

It's not about changing your whole face until you look like a wax doll lol.
Just one or two well-targeted operations by a recognized surgeon 👍

[Emerald]

53 minutes ago, QVx said:

@Emerald, would you be able to find some examples to help support your view in this thread?

The main issue I think that is happening within this discussion is that many people are unable to approach what you’re saying from a conscious place.

Using examples would help bridge that misunderstanding by taking away theory and focusing more on reality.

I’m sure there are some great examples on YouTube, even if just in the form of clips.

What I would say is that the men that I admire the most and who I find myself most attracted to tend to be men who are very unique who probably never think of being Masculine yet have a really beautiful subtle Masculine energy.

But I’m not so sure that men who value being more Masculine would see these men as role models of Masculinity. And men might not appreciate why I would find these men attractive and they may not recognize their Masculine energy because it doesn’t have much to do with the Masculine ideal.

They are just fully themselves and living in alignment with their purpose. And their natural subtle unpretended Masculinity comes through effortlessly.

Here are some examples of well-known men who I look up to and who I find attractive…

• (Young) Mr. Rogers 
• Jon Stewart
• Cornell West
• (Young) George Carlin 
• Reggie Watts
• Jack Black
• Bo Burnham

That’s the thing about Masculinity, the moment you try is the moment you fail.

Edited April 10 by Emerald

[StarStruck]

When shit hits the fan, I doubt those guys would be any use to you or anybody else. Neither would you feel safe. 

My definition of healthy masculinity is a man who tamed his inner animal. I like Peterson’s philosophy on this one. 
 

 

Edited April 10 by StarStruck

[Princess Arabia]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

What I would say is that the men that I admire the most and who I find myself most attracted to tend to be men who are very unique who probably never think of being Masculine yet have a really beautiful subtle Masculine energy.

But I’m not so sure that men who value being more Masculine would see these men as role models of Masculinity. And men might not appreciate why I would find these men attractive and they may not recognize their Masculine energy because it doesn’t have much to do with the Masculine ideal.

They are just fully themselves and living in alignment with their purpose. And their natural subtle unpretended Masculinity comes through effortlessly.

Oh my, this is me. These men don't even realize they exude masculinity. They are so ordinary but exquisitely unique on the relative level. They don't even try or not try. They are not in gyms and wearing fancy clothes and trying to impress. A "real" woman can't help but be attracted to them even if she tries not to. All this also extends in the bedroom and they are usually the best love makers. I have had the pleasure of being with a few of these types, which one in particular comes to mind. The only negative thing I have to say about them, is that they are not immune to "cheating" and can be sex addicts. 

Guys trying to be masculine can come off like men trying to be women. They overdo it. Ever see those pre-op transexuals. Yes, honey let me tell you honey,(waving the hand with the extra long nails, walking with a twitch and swaying their hips like they ain't got none, and always in make-up and their hair did. Always extra.

Edited April 10 by Princess Arabia

[Emerald]

33 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

When shit hits the fan, I doubt those guys would be any use to you or anybody else. Neither would you feel safe. 

My definition of healthy masculinity is a man who tamed his inner animal. I like Peterson’s philosophy on this one. 
 

Are you talking about the guys that I mentioned in my post above?

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Princess Arabia said:

Oh my, this is me. These men don't even realize they exude masculinity. They are so ordinary but exquisitely unique on the relative level. They don't even try or not try. 

This is exactly what's so attractive about men. It's the subtle unpretended Masculinity.

[Princess Arabia]

Just now, Emerald said:

This is exactly what's so attractive about men. It's the subtle unpretended Masculinity.

right on!

[Tenebroso]

@Emerald Interesting examples. I admire Jon Stewart and Cornel West. George Carlin is a hero of mine, use to fall asleep to his comedy specials. Jack Black I admire but I know I could never embody that level of self confidence.

Your original post is enlightening, I recognize the shame you talk about in myself. I am 30 and have only known rejection to the point that I struggle to look women in the eye and try to avoid them in public now because I feel so unworthy.

I've never tried to compensate by being super stylish or becoming muscular, focusing on my look etc However at least for my generation it seems those things matter you don't get to show your positive qualities unless you have an attractive mask.

I feel that there is a harsh truth that society struggles to accept, some men are just meant to be alone. Being my natural self has never attracted anyone. All kinds of men get laid a lot not just guys similar to your examples with a balanced masculine and feminine nature. Murderers, drug dealers, thieves and much worse seem to get laid. In the UK where I live a police officer kidnapped, abused and killed a woman while on duty yet he had a wife and family. What's so wrong with guys like me?

Edited April 11 by Tenebroso

[Emerald]

Just now, Tenebroso said:

@Emerald Interesting examples. I admire Jon Stewart and Cornel West. George Carlin is a hero of mine, use to fall asleep to his comedy specials. Jack Black I admire but I know I could never embody that level of self confidence.

They all have really interesting unique vibes about them. It's what self-actualization really looks like when someone individuates to the point where no one else on the planet is even remotely like them because they have embodied and developed themselves so deeply.

It's why I usually find all the attempts to be more Masculine to backfire because the attempt to do that often subsumes what's really brilliant and attractive about a given man into a paint-by-numbers model of manhood.

[Tenebroso]

@Emerald Reply to my edited post.

[Tenebroso]

10 minutes ago, Emerald said:

They all have really interesting unique vibes about them. It's what self-actualization really looks like when someone individuates to the point where no one else on the planet is even remotely like them because they have embodied and developed themselves so deeply.

It's why I usually find all the attempts to be more Masculine to backfire because the attempt to do that often subsumes what's really brilliant and attractive about a given man into a paint-by-numbers model of manhood.

These kind of men probably receive validation very early. When I was at school some guys were getting laid at 13,14 those boys begun a cycle of always being involved with women and being validated, they never even had a chance to develop shame. While guys like myself have been stuck in an infinite cycle of peer and romantic rejection from childhood, how are you supposed to break that negative loop if you never get a chance.

All the self development and awareness means nothing if you never get a chance to show your positive qualities in a relationship, people are not islands we grow and gain confidence in relation to other people. This is the missing part of your excellent post which did resonate with me. Some men like myself are psychologically and emotionally broken beyond repair, it feels karmic as if I did something to deserve this in another life.

Edited April 11 by Tenebroso

[Emerald]

10 minutes ago, Tenebroso said:

@Emerald Your original post is enlightening, I recognize the shame you talk about in myself. I am 30 and have only known rejection to the point that I struggle to look women in the eye and try to avoid them in public now because I feel so unworthy.

I've never tried to compensate by being super stylish or becoming muscular, focusing on my look etc However at least for my generation it seems those things matter you don't get to show your positive qualities unless you have an attractive mask.

I feel that there is a harsh truth that society struggles to accept, some men are just meant to be alone. Being my natural self has never attracted anyone. All kinds of men get laid a lot not just guys similar to your examples with a balanced masculine and feminine nature. Murderers, drug dealers, thieves and much worse seem to get laid. In the UK where I live a police officer kidnapped, abused and killed a woman while on duty yet he had a wife and family. What's so wrong with guys like me?

That's all just the shame talking.

It's only your beliefs about yourself that stem from those feelings of shame that make you feel like you're meant to be alone and that no one would want you.

The first step is to fall in love with who and what you are. Start to prefer your own qualities.

And example of this would be like this...

When I was a little girl, I wanted to be pretty. But most pretty women in the media at that time were blondes... usually with blue eyes. And all the songs that people would sing about beautiful women would usually have blonde or red hair and blue or green eyes... with the exception of "Brown-eyed Girl".

So, I was always thinking I was boring looking and unattractive when I was a kid. Add on top of this that I'm very pale, and being tan was/is seen as more beautiful in the eyes of society.

But as a teenager, I started leaning into my darker features and my pale skin. And it worked really well with the goth look that I was going for at the time.

And I began to genuinely prefer looking the way that I do.

This is what you would need to do with your looks and your personality traits. Come to prefer the way you are and celebrate the way you are.