Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Inliytened1]

30 minutes ago, hundreth said:

That's true, though it feels like the same (Atrocity propaganda) is being done in reverse to Israelis and sometimes Jews in general. 

It was frustrating seeing how very shortly after Oct 7 the beheaded babies rumor showed up, and then instantly the hostages and real carnage that took place was forgotten in place of shifted goalposts. 

 

What the mostly left is doing is demonizing Israel.   That's what your seeing here on this forum.  A complete demonization of Israel.  It leaves out the terrorism of Hamas and Hezbollah because it wants to focus on demonizing Israel.    It leaves out where Hamas specifically positioned it's personell among civilians.

Yet the problem is there is no defense of what Israel is now doing in Gaza.  I cannot dispute that they have become terrorists of their own now.  It is not the sign of an advanced people.  

 

 

[royce]

**A Word on the Day of the Flood**

I will speak to you away from emotions and whims, and will talk about many facts and evidence. The purpose is to clarify the nature and future of war in general and the Palestinian issue in particular. I will summarize my article in a few interconnected points, using a panoramic style as usual.

**First:** Those who are rushing for victory, whether from Israel or the resistance, are mistaken. This war is long, and rushing its results is a kind of ignorance and fanaticism. Likewise, those who measure victory and defeat by material and human losses are also mistaken. Wars are a struggle of wills; whichever will prevails and imposes itself on the opponent is the victor, even if it suffers greater losses, and vice versa.

**Second:** Since the first day, the Palestinian resistance has not been fighting Israel alone, but also the United States, the G7, and NATO. The G7 has provided political cover for the occupation and supported it with weapons. Since October 7, 2023, military support for Israel has reached over 100,000 tons, a rate that matches four times the "Nickel Grass" operation, where the U.S. supplied Israel during its 1973 war against Egypt and Syria.

More than 500 ships and hundreds of flights from the West to Israel over the year are the reason behind Israel's current aggressiveness in #Gaza and Lebanon.

**Third:** The issue of possessing weapons is fundamental not only in wars but also in imposing wills and influencing matters of economy, society, politics, culture, and religion, etc. Imagine if Russia would react strongly if it learned that NATO was transferring missiles to Poland or that the U.S. was developing missiles with greater ranges and heavier warheads, or that stealth aircraft were being produced that Russian air defenses could not shoot down. This is because the West's military superiority would negatively affect Russian society as a whole.

Russia specifically made the S-400 system against American stealth aircraft and developed hypersonic missiles to ensure its superiority and impose its will over the West. Meanwhile, in our Arab region, we were well aware that Israel would acquire F-35 stealth aircraft, and we did not act. We knew they were developing long-range Jericho ballistic missiles and did not act. We knew they were enhancing their air defense systems with Arrow missiles and the Iron Dome, and we did not act. This is the main reason for the current chaos in the Middle East, as the decision for war and the possession of power lie in the hands of one party, which explains the shameful silence in the face of the crime of genocide happening to two Arab peoples.

**Fourth:** The "Al-Aqsa Flood" cannot be understood only within the geographical context of Palestine. From the first day, we said it would lead to a long and wide war outside of Palestine if a ceasefire is not achieved. The reason for this is its religious connotations in naming—equivalent to the religious connotations of the Zionist naming of Al-Aqsa as the "Temple of Solomon." Those who criticize the flood for its religious naming should also criticize Israel for its religious naming. This flood is merely an Islamic religious reaction to Zionist extremism.

**Fifth:** Who would have believed that Iran would strike Israel twice, including partially destroying three airports and damaging a significant part of the Zionist air force, which roamed freely day and night before October 1? Who would have believed that Yemen and Iraq would be striking Tel Aviv on a daily basis?

And who would have believed that Israel has been living through its longest state of emergency since its establishment, with the battle moving for the first time to its own land, cities, and settlements? These are some of the results of the flood, which have not ended, and it appears that there are still many surprises in store.

-Sameh Asker

[zazen]

19 minutes ago, hundreth said:

That's true, though it feels like the same (Atrocity propaganda) is being done in reverse to Israelis and sometimes Jews in general. 

It was frustrating seeing how very shortly after Oct 7 the beheaded babies rumor showed up, and then instantly the hostages and real carnage that took place was forgotten in place of shifted goalposts. 

Meanwhile, actions by the IDF or certain members of Israeli society are cherry picked and used to dehumanize all Israelis as "evil zionists" where any harm to them is justified. You can see it here, where forum members call Oct 7th atrocities "glorious." This can only be a result of the same kind of dehumanization.

True, it’s one thing to call a just cause glorious, it’s another to call the violent means to that end, in and of itself glorious. Theirs glory in the cause, not in immoral acts done in pursuit of that cause.

Tribal thinking will generalize the best of their group while exceptionalising the worst of their group. Cherry picking the worst examples of a society is problematic as it reduces a society to its worst elements. But I think in Israel’s case theres just been so many cases of bad behaviour caught on video and for such a small country that it looks more systemic rather than as isolated anomalies.

It’s obviously not all the population, but it’s sizable enough to shift state policy and politics. I’ve seen pro Palestinians quote polling which showed that most Israelis don’t think Israel was going hard enough on Gaza in their bombing campaign, even I shared that here before - but I’d have to verify how reflective such polls can really be ie what’s the sample size etc. Its messy to generalize with such things.

[Inliytened1]

17 minutes ago, zazen said:

True, it’s one thing to call a just cause glorious, it’s another to call the violent means to that end, in and of itself glorious. Theirs glory in the cause, not in immoral acts done in pursuit of that cause.

Tribal thinking will generalize the best of their group while exceptionalising the worst of their group. Cherry picking the worst examples of a society is problematic as it reduces a society to its worst elements. But I think in Israel’s case theres just been so many cases of bad behaviour caught on video and for such a small country that it looks more systemic rather than as isolated anomalies.

It’s obviously not all the population, but it’s sizable enough to shift state policy and politics. I’ve seen pro Palestinians quote polling which showed that most Israelis don’t think Israel was going hard enough on Gaza in their bombing campaign, even I shared that here before - but I’d have to verify how reflective such polls can really be ie what’s the sample size etc. Its messy to generalize with such things.

But you see certain people here view Israel as corrupt even as far back as how they founded their state.  And mayhap it was done through terrible atrocities.  But those same horrible acts were done apon them. Where is the focus on that?  Just because the war in Gaza is current events we must not forget history. Do you know how hard I had to work to even get certain people to even admit what Hitler did was terrible? So who is to say that the Palestinians havent been amicable and would have accepted things that you mentioned like citizenship and a place within Israel.  Who is to say that is enough for them?   So it's easy to say it's all on Israel.  It's easy to focus on what they are doing because it's at the forefront.   Yes what they are doing now is wrong but as @hundreth points out there is plenty of that to go around.  Thanks for being a bit more open minded than you were before.

Edited October 7, 2024 by Inliytened1

[Leo Gura]

Good summary of 1 year after:

 

[Karmadhi]

32 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

nd mayhap it was done through terrible atrocities.  But those same horrible acts were done apon them. Where is the focus on that? 

I think it is because the world sees Europe and especially Germany as the big oppressor and murderer of Jews.

If the Nakba had happened in Germany and Jews had taken part of Germany to make a country, I think few would have issues with it.

But in Palestine Jews and Muslims lived in peace for centuries. They are seen as innocent, or at least far far nicer than Europeans to jews.

Therefore, it is unfair for them to suffer the price of European barbarism towards Jews.

Imagine I bully you then you go bully some random guy who had nothing to do with it.

It would be as unfair as my bullying was.

The Holocaust was not a Palestinian action, it was an European action.

Europe alone should suffer the consequences of it, not Palestine.

See the point?

 

Edited October 7, 2024 by Karmadhi

[Inliytened1]

12 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

I think it is because the world sees Europe and especially Germany as the big oppressor and murderer of Jews.

If the Nakba had happened in Germany and Jews had taken part of Germany to make a country, I think few would have issues with it.

But in Palestine Jews and Muslims lived in peace for centuries. They are seen as innocent, or at least far far nicer than Europeans to jews.

Therefore, it is unfair for them to suffer the price of European barbarism towards Jews.

Imagine I bully you then you go bully some random guy who had nothing to do with it.

It would be as unfair as my bullying was.

The Holocaust was not a Palestinian action, it was an European action.

Europe alone should suffer the consequences of it, not Palestine.

See the point?

 

Hamas isn't some random guy they massacred 1500 Jews.

[Yimpa]

Kamala speaking about the Hamas attack:

 

[Raze]

 

[PurpleTree]

8 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I think it is because the world sees Europe and especially Germany as the big oppressor and murderer of Jews.

If the Nakba had happened in Germany and Jews had taken part of Germany to make a country, I think few would have issues with it.

But in Palestine Jews and Muslims lived in peace for centuries. They are seen as innocent, or at least far far nicer than Europeans to jews.

Therefore, it is unfair for them to suffer the price of European barbarism towards Jews.

Imagine I bully you then you go bully some random guy who had nothing to do with it.

It would be as unfair as my bullying was.

The Holocaust was not a Palestinian action, it was an European action.

Europe alone should suffer the consequences of it, not Palestine.

See the point?

 

Europe did suffer the consequences.

Many cities totally destroyed. Many million people killed. More than 4 Million civilians in Germany i think died. Dresden etc.  Many many women raped and so on.

[zazen]

9 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

But you see certain people here view Israel as corrupt even as far back as how they founded their state.  And mayhap it was done through terrible atrocities.  But those same horrible acts were done apon them.

That's not justification do to horrible acts to others though. Otherwise, we can say that whats happening to Gazans can now be done upon Israelis, which is wrong. Israels Mossad headquarters is based in a densley populated area of Tel Aviv filled with civilians - can we say Israel is using human shields? Does this become a legit target? Of course not, but Israels government thinks different when they see Palestinians.

9 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Where is the focus on that?  Just because the war in Gaza is current events we must not forget history.

But we must learn from history and not commit the same mistakes, or similar. What makes Israel a special case is it was founded in the 20th century when the world had already adopted new norms around self determination and de-colonisation. Even if we put the founding of Israel behind us, the issue is they still continue to expand settlements till today and take territory or deny territory to Palestinians in the form of their own state.

The focus is because the West completely backs and sends money to Israel unconditionally while not having as much concern for their own citizens (Hurricane Helen as a recent example). The entire America First meme indicates how fed up people are. So not only can the West play a massive part in stopping this grave injustice, but they can focus on their own issues.

9 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

So it's easy to say it's all on Israel.  It's easy to focus on what they are doing because it's at the forefront.

Thats why its the focus of today, because we can do something about it. Most countries were found on violent histories - but thats the point, that violence is history and not a present reality as nations have largely resolved their territorial disputes and settled within their borders. But no nation is obstructing another group from having their own today except Israel. You can't just keep millions of people stateless into the 21st century as if their a random tribe in the Amazon rainforest.

Edited October 8, 2024 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

Ethnic cleansing for me but not for thee.

[Karmadhi]

12 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Hamas isn't some random guy they massacred 1500 Jews.

Perhaps it was not clear what I wrote.

I will make it more clear.

I was referring to the creation of Israel and all the brutal actions that came with it.

I am not referring to what is happening right now, but explaining why Israel is so hated by the region.

All the brutal actions Leo explained regarding how Israel was funded.

PS: Do not use fake numbers, Israel has said around 1150 died in total and around 750 to 800 were civilians. From them, some were killed by Israel itself but the number is unknown. 

Edited October 8, 2024 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

3 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

Europe did suffer the consequences.

Many cities totally destroyed. Many million people killed. More than 4 Million civilians in Germany i think died. Dresden etc.  Many many women raped and so on.

Not regarding the holocaust. There was no punishment for Germany about it.

They just decided to put all the Jews in Europe into a new state for Jewish people and since the UK occupied land in the Middle East, it was decided to make it there.

Was Palestine consulted about it? Was the region? Did they give the green light beforehand? Did Palestine population did? I dont think so.

So Palestine was the one that suffered the consequences with half its territory of the British Mandate being given to Israel.

Why didnt Europe force Germany to give up some of its territory for Israel?

Or Italy?

Nobody would have had issues with that.

 

Edited October 8, 2024 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Not regarding the holocaust. There was no punishment for Germany about it.

Germany paid reparations to Israel and Jews for the Holocaust.

https://www.state.gov/reports/just-act-report-to-congress/germany/

Edited October 8, 2024 by Leo Gura

[PurpleTree]

15 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Not regarding the holocaust. There was no punishment for Germany about it.

They just decided to put all the Jews in Europe into a new state for Jewish people and since the UK occupied land in the Middle East, it was decided to make it there.

Was Palestine consulted about it? Was the region? Did they give the green light beforehand? Did Palestine population did? I dont think so.

So Palestine was the one that suffered the consequences with half its territory of the British Mandate being given to Israel.

Why didnt Europe force Germany to give up some of its territory for Israel?

Or Italy?

Nobody would have had issues with that.

 

Jews/Zionists wanted to go to Israel/Palestine even before the war

Germany is now still supporting Israel without limits to the detriment of the Palestinians because of the holocaust 

But in the Holocaust also Millions and Millions of non Jews died that’s sometimes almost forgotten 

 

 

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Jews/Zionists wanted to go to Israel/Palestine even before the war

The Israel ethnic cleansing project began before the Holocaust, from the 1930s it was underway.

The irony is that before Jews were ethnically cleansed from Germany they had already been planning how to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians.

[zazen]

Seems like the ethnic cleansing and dispossession will continue if this video indicates what looks like West Bank 2.0 in the making : 

New buffer zones created in Gaza by dividing it into fractured blocks to be monitored via check points stationed in multiple corridors. So instead of occupying it from outside, they will occupy it from within.

Any Hamas fighters or ''resistance'' to this dystopia that pops up from the tunnels will be stamped out like a game of whack a mole as the IDF will be watching like hawks over it.

This isn't a solution, only a escalation of a already intolerable reality. As if we haven't seen what Israel has already done with their power except nothing but abuse it in the West Bank with settlement expansion. This reality will be copy and pasted onto Gaza as the precedent is already set.

All this done in the 21st century, backed by the West. The world failed the Palestinian people, shame.

[PurpleTree]

I mean if the Zionists can pull it off.

Remodelling the middle East, pacify or destroy their adversaries and eventually live in peace and prosper.

Then yea the death and destruction is very sad but it’s still impressive.

[Girzo]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The irony is that before Jews were ethnically cleansed from Germany they had already been planning how to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians.

One can call it a Zeitgeist.