Israel has to be stopped

[J J]

Hello, everyone.

Lately, I've been trying to avoid the news about Palestine, as it has become too hard for me to deal with. All these images, destroyed homes, suffering children, having their future taken away... Is just a monstrosity. It's inhuman. This can't keep happening. 

With this example, I'd like to show you how even someone with a low spiritual stage such as Alex Jones can see the reality. Even this well-known stage orange individual is able to realize Israel's genocide.

As a globalized society, all countries have to condemn and hold IDF accountable for what it's doing. 

The world has to act NOW.

I'd love to read your thoughts on this topic, especially what, in your opinion, would be the best ending to this conflict.

Regards, and much love.

[Danioover9000]

@J J

1 hour ago, J J said:

Hello, everyone.

Lately, I've been trying to avoid the news about Palestine, as it has become too hard for me to deal with. All these images, destroyed homes, suffering children, having their future taken away... Is just a monstrosity. It's inhuman. This can't keep happening. 

With this example, I'd like to show you how even someone with a low spiritual stage such as Alex Jones can see the reality. Even this well-known stage orange individual is able to realize Israel's genocide.

As a globalized society, all countries have to condemn and hold IDF accountable for what it's doing. 

The world has to act NOW.

I'd love to read your thoughts on this topic, especially what, in your opinion, would be the best ending to this conflict.

Regards, and much love.

   So what happened here is the arguer, Alex Jones, is using this Israel/Palestine conflict as a prop and red herring to sneak an attack against the government that's left leaning, and the current establishment. We can have plenty of arguments over the definitions of genocide versus ethnic cleansing, IMO what Israel's doing so more ethnic cleansing than a genocide, but categorizing it as a genocide also simplifies the issue because of the killings of both armed combatants(HAMMAs) to civilian Gazans in military combat, or deaths related to illnesses and injuries which could've been treated if hospitals were not being destroyed, or deaths related to thirst and starvation if Israel wasn't too restrictive of water/food supplies, as well as little incidents of shootings by some IDF soldiers in 'justified'. However it's important to stay broad and think in the big picture, and be aware when other biased agents are using this event to posit their ideology.

   I don't want to poison the well or ad hominem Alex Jones, but he's an alt right conspiracy theorist who's mostly anarchist against the main establishment, so I'd take his takes with a grain of salt.

Edited March 22, 2024 by Danioover9000

[bebotalk]

Seeing who is "right or wrong" in this case is foolhardy. 

Israel would say "Hamas wants us all dead!"

Hamas would say"you invaded our lands years ago, so get out!!" 

Israel would say "we have a claim tom these lands, as our religion and forefathers were here millennia ago. And we have nowhere else to go as we've been persecuted for centuries in Europe and elsewhere!"

Hamas would retort "we've been here too for centuries! We can't help that Arab Muslims conquered this place centuries ago and made our ancestors Muslim!!" 

Whether Israel is committing genocide or not is very moot. But blaming one side over the other is cringe and both sides should ideally accept each others' right to remain there. 

[Nivsch]

*The hoatages have to be released.

Edited March 22, 2024 by Nivsch

[Breakingthewall]

When the US was at war with Japan, there was a time when Japan sought an honorable surrender, but the United States sought an unconditional surrender, since anything else would risk more war. The Japanese had the doctrine of 100 million dead, until a single Japanese lived, they would not surrender. The Americans, to force the surrender, bombed Tokyo with incendiary bombs, causing 100,000 deaths in a single day, and then they dropped an atomic bomb, and to clear up doubts, they dropped another. The Japanese, seeing the determination of the Americans, had to surrender.

Then they became good friends and partner in business, same than the Germans and the British, who bombed hamburg and dresde without mercy. Same mercy than the Germans, or the Japanese, would show if they could  

In short, if you start a war, then don't complain when you have a war, you can surrender if you want

Edited March 22, 2024 by Breakingthewall

[Danioover9000]

@bebotalk

56 minutes ago, bebotalk said:

Seeing who is "right or wrong" in this case is foolhardy. 

Israel would say "Hamas wants us all dead!"

Hamas would say"you invaded our lands years ago, so get out!!" 

Israel would say "we have a claim tom these lands, as our religion and forefathers were here millennia ago. And we have nowhere else to go as we've been persecuted for centuries in Europe and elsewhere!"

Hamas would retort "we've been here too for centuries! We can't help that Arab Muslims conquered this place centuries ago and made our ancestors Muslim!!" 

Whether Israel is committing genocide or not is very moot. But blaming one side over the other is cringe and both sides should ideally accept each others' right to remain there. 

    Technically not Israelis or even Israel, but they were considered a Jewish state and Zionists of Zionism before Israel. Israel is only founded after the British mandate and after they secured an alliance with the USA at that time. Considering the events of the Al Nakba it's very understandable they want their lands back.

[Danioover9000]

@Breakingthewall

5 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

When the US was at war with Japan, there was a time when Japan sought an honorable surrender, but the United States sought an unconditional surrender, since anything else would risk more war. The Japanese had the doctrine of 100 million dead, until a single Japanese lived, they would not surrender. The Americans, to force the surrender, bombed Tokyo with incendiary bombs, causing 100,000 deaths in a single day, and then they dropped an atomic bomb, and to clear up doubts, they dropped another. The Japanese, seeing the determination of the Americans, had to surrender.

Then they became good friends and partner in business, same than the Germans and the British, who bombed hamburg and dresde without mercy. Same mercy than the Germans, or the Japanese, would show if they could 

   Yes they bombed Tokyo with incendiary bombs knowing most houses were made of wood, and perhaps knowing the ratio of Japanese soldiers to civilians yet they didn't care. After doing some number of tests of the nuclear bomb they had an idea of it's effects yet they still decided to use those nukes over sending 100,000s of American soldiers into Japan. If I'm not mistaken Nagasaki was an accidental drop, they intended to hit another target so civilian deaths is much more higher than soldier deaths. Then they dropped another nuke, I think it's fat boy, onto Hiroshima, and after that the Japanese imperialists had to surrender unconditionally or face extinction by nukes. IMO it'[s a horrendous event in the pacific war, IMO it's easy to argue it's genocidal what the Americans did through and through, from bombing Tokyo to accidental drop of Nagasaki, and the lack of treatment for radiation sickness later on it definitely reasonable to argue it's genocide.

[lina]

5 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

When the US was at war with Japan, there was a time when Japan sought an honorable surrender, but the United States sought an unconditional surrender, since anything else would risk more war. The Japanese had the doctrine of 100 million dead, until a single Japanese lived, they would not surrender. The Americans, to force the surrender, bombed Tokyo with incendiary bombs, causing 100,000 deaths in a single day, and then they dropped an atomic bomb, and to clear up doubts, they dropped another. The Japanese, seeing the determination of the Americans, had to surrender.

Then they became good friends and partner in business, same than the Germans and the British, who bombed hamburg and dresde without mercy. Same mercy than the Germans, or the Japanese, would show if they could  

In short, if you start a war, then don't complain when you have a war, you can surrender if you want

Enough with spreading this comparison because it has nothing in common with the Israel-Palestine conflict. It's completely different thing when the conflict is over land and one side keeps stealing more territories. 

[Ima Freeman]

28 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

When the US was at war with Japan, there was a time when Japan sought an honorable surrender, but the United States sought an unconditional surrender, since anything else would risk more war. The Japanese had the doctrine of 100 million dead, until a single Japanese lived, they would not surrender. The Americans, to force the surrender, bombed Tokyo with incendiary bombs, causing 100,000 deaths in a single day, and then they dropped an atomic bomb, and to clear up doubts, they dropped another. The Japanese, seeing the determination of the Americans, had to surrender.

Then they became good friends and partner in business, same than the Germans and the British, who bombed hamburg and dresde without mercy. Same mercy than the Germans, or the Japanese, would show if they could  

In short, if you start a war, then don't complain when you have a war, you can surrender if you want

Somewhat true, but still faulty.
Gaza is not a nation state with a long historic past and stable government.
It's more like an open-air prison with an fundamentalist armed gang who took over order.

[Danioover9000]

@lina

52 minutes ago, lina said:

Enough with spreading this comparison because it has nothing in common with the Israel-Palestine conflict. It's completely different thing when the conflict is over land and one side keeps stealing more territories. 

   What if this comparison is justified because of this tweet?

https://x.com/sleepy_devo/status/1769527572860141922?s=20

[Phoenix Garfield]

Karma will get them hard.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, lina said:

Enough with spreading this comparison because it has nothing in common with the Israel-Palestine conflict. It's completely different thing when the conflict is over land and one side keeps stealing more territories. 

It's exactly the same, war. In all wars both thinks that they are absolutely right and they fight until death. 

[Danioover9000]

@Breakingthewall

12 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's exactly the same, war. In all wars both thinks that they are absolutely right and they fight until death. 

   It's actually not the same, but it's similar if you take into account the differences in warfare and historical events between the history of the Israel/Palestine conflict versus the pacific war between America and Japan. You'll have to make an argument for why it's the exact same instead of stating it's just the same because you're begging the question in the face of those differences in warfare, culture, and historical events.

[Danioover9000]

@Phoenix Garfield

29 minutes ago, Phoenix Garfield said:

Karma will get them hard.

   Why would karma get them bad? Do you know you're just appealing to a divine justice/punishment, obfuscating individual/collective responsibility of the conflict? It's like the 'it is what it is', 'it is fated to be/predestined to be this way.' type of talking points most religious folks do to remove responsibility and shift blame to some higher authority figure/imagined all powerful figure.

[Breakingthewall]

9 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Breakingthewall

   It's actually not the same, but it's similar if you take into account the differences in warfare and historical events between the history of the Israel/Palestine conflict versus the pacific war between America and Japan. You'll have to make an argument for why it's the exact same instead of stating it's just the same because you're begging the question in the face of those differences in warfare, culture, and historical events.

It is the same in the sense that two groups or nations have conflicting interests and this leads to violence, and once violence begins, the only important thing is to win, to crush the enemy so that he cannot attack you. It is already the fourth time that the Palestinians declare war on Israel, the normal thing in these cases is to be exterminated 

Israel now has only one thing in mind, show to it's enemies that attack them is a terrible mistake. That's the way to avoid more attacks, there is not another way 

Edited March 22, 2024 by Breakingthewall

[BlueOak]

Like I told everyone at the start, the natural conclusion to this is cyclic suffering. It's impossible to be certain, as it could spill into a different country, however:

1) The obvious point is Israel is slowly left alone and isolated, surrounded by the many enemies that have all collectively, including Israel, created the situation that will dominate that region over the coming decades. America is slowly pulling its sphere of influence back, and this is a catalyst to do so. 

2) The alternative path is always there. That people are fed up with the slaughter and course correct, but that is unlikely while what is being achieved is not only wanted but shielded from reprisal. If they did this, things could calm down, leading to a period of mourning. 

3) A third path is Israel align with BRICS for protection, and BRICS to drop Iran or somehow weave a truce between them, I find it unlikely at this stage, given the history of people interfering in the region, but China carries a lot of weight when it wants to.

4) Maybe people have become so indifferent and turned inward, that when Palestine is gone, nobody will care Palestine is gone. Given the current patterns, I think this is more likely than is expressed here. It'll still be used as a rallying cry forever more, they are creating an entire generation and country of martyrs.

My interest in international politics has waned in the last months again, the cycles are too obvious, and the patterns rarely alter, just branch out. All I can do is point them out over and over.

*Oh and SHIP supplies to Palestine, stop using stupid choked-up road checkpoints as the point of contact. Check the ship before it leaves port, then take the supplies in trucks after they are checked. That is if people want the population fed and clothed, but instead they want the population out of there by any means necessary.

[Danioover9000]

@Breakingthewall

7 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It is the same in the sense that two groups or nations have conflicting interests and this leads to violence, and once violence begins, the only important thing is to win, to crush the enemy so that he cannot attack you. It is already the fourth time that the Palestinians declare war on Israel, the normal thing in these cases is to be exterminated 

Israel now has only one thing in mind, show to it's enemies that attack them is a terrible mistake. That's the way to avoid more attacks, there is not another way 

   But you made the claim they're exactly the same, so if that's true then Palestinians the same as Japanese? Palestinian culture the same as Japanese culture? Palestinian/Arab state cuisine the same as Japanese cuisine? Palestinian military tactics the same as Japanese military tactics? the demographics of Palestinians the same as the demographics of Japan? The birthrate crisis of Japan the same as the birth rate crisis of the Palestinians? Both Palestinian state and Japanese state share the same economy, history, geography, and many more societal domains? Do you have proof to show both the Palestinians and the Japanese are exactly the same in the narrow sense?

   Is both the pacific war and the Israel/Palestinian conflict the exact same conflicts of interest? Over land?

   Is the historical events that led to the Pacific war the same as the events that led up to the Al Nakba, the British mandate, the 3 Intifadas, the Oslo accords, the Yon Kippur war, this current war against HAMMAs?

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

It is the same in the sense that two groups or nations have conflicting interests and this leads to violence, and once violence begins, the only important thing is to win, to crush the enemy so that he cannot attack you. It is already the fourth time that the Palestinians declare war on Israel, the normal thing in these cases is to be exterminated 

Israel now has only one thing in mind, show to it's enemies that attack them is a terrible mistake. That's the way to avoid more attacks, there is not another way 

Since this war has many components including religious and ideology ones, the perspective you described is part of the complex reality of this conflict.

The Palestinians refusal to any compromise throughout the years is, among the rest, out of a fundamentalist religous ideology.

Edited March 22, 2024 by Nivsch

[Yimpa]

Here we go again 

[Breakingthewall]

@Danioover9000  

obviously it is not the same, it is similar in that it is a war. The Palestinians do not want peace, they want war and the expulsion of the Jews from Israel, then there is war, and the logical thing would be for Israel to expel all the Palestinians. They are already totally hated by the Palestinian and by all their neighbors, so they lose nothing and gain a lot. 

19 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

The Palestinians refusal to any compromise throughout the years is, among the rest, out of a fundamentalist religous ideology.

Yes, there is no solution, they aren't going to stop being fundamentalist, so it is impossible to live with them. Either you go or they go.

Edited March 22, 2024 by Breakingthewall