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Imagine 100 people contemplating suicide. Roughly how many are in the exceptional-cases category? Possibly not even 1. You might have to go up to 1000 before you even get one. I myself have seen more than 100 cases of people contemplating suicide and not a single one of them fit the exceptional-cases category. So yes, it wasn't meant to be precise number, but it wasn't pulled out of thin air either. I'd say the 99% is a reasonable ballpark. 95 seems too low. Given the size difference, it doesn't make sense to publicly cater to the exceptional-cases category because you'd do more harm than good, which people seem to be having a difficult time grasping. --- There's too much variation/uniqueness for me to conceptualize suicidal ideation on a spectrum. But nonetheless, the examples you highlighted wouldn't fit in the exceptional-cases category.

There's no evidence supporting this claim. Maybe it was simply rhetorical. I would argue that most people who consider/think about suicide are not simply looking for "reasons to go through with it." Suicidal thinking exists on a spectrum. Some people have a persistent desire to die. But then also many experience intense ambivalence; they want the pain to end and want to live if things could improve.

I agree with you. My point is about communication. 99% of the time, people contemplating suicide are not the people you described - they're just people going through a rough patch and looking for reasons to go through with it or not. Imagine someone pops up a thread saying they want to off themselves and then a bunch of people are like "don't do it bruh, suicide is never the answer" and then some epistemic genius chimes in "well, actually, if the person is suffering enough, it can be the right answer." How is that not reckless and weird? Also, imagine a respected leader said "suicide is sometimes the right answer" 225 times to a community that regularly deals with suicidal thoughts. How is this not reckless and weird? The alternative is to just never say it - keep it to yourself to avoid inadvertently contributing to immense suffering.

Is All Life Worth Living I wrote this in a previous post and I still stand by it. I also caught myself thinking of the book Breasts and Eggs that I read a few weeks ago. There is a part of the book that really lingers with me as I am contemplating the question of parenthood for myself. For context sake, the book is written in first person with the main character, Natsuko, who is contemplating on getting sperm donor so she can have baby since she's in her mid 30s without a partner. She met some people at this sperm donor convention where people who were conceived via sperm donation were talking about the ethics of such a practice and how it impacted their lived experience. She met and became friends with Aizawa, a doctor and someone who was conceived via sperm donation, and Yuriko is Aizawa's ex-girlfriend who was also concevied via sperm donation. Part of the reason why Aizawa and Yuriko became close is because Aizawa recently found out he was a product of sperm donation and had no clue who his father was. This blew up his entire life to where the person he was engaged to previously broke up with him because she didn't want to have a kid and have the kid not know who his paternal grandfather was. He dealt with a lot of stigma surrounding this issue as this was Japan in the early 2000s and basically he personally had a breakdown over who he thought he was, what was real etc. Yuriko shared her experiences with also being conceived via sperm donation and she explained that her mom had her via sperm donation and her father (not biological, just married to her mom) repeated raped her growing up. In a way, finding out she was conceived via sperm donation was freeing because at least wasn't her biological father who molested her all those years. That's what she told Aizawa. She's telling all of this to Natsuko and expanded on this story, telling her that not only did her father molest her, but he also pimped her out multiple times in her childhood. It wasn't just in her home, but in her father's car by the river near a park. She illustrated how she remembered every moment of those instances, from the shapes of the clouds to the children her age playing in a park near by as she was getting raped by multiple men. This goes on for a few pages and then Yuriko starts talking about the ethics of having children period. p. 350- 351 Then Yuriko talks about Aizawa's experience in the children's ward of the hospital he worked at. p. 352-353 I think about the forest metaphor often as I'm writing in this journal. I think about how the decision to bring life into this world is a gamble whether it has to do with your current circumstances, how the world changes over time, what kind of kid you get, their temperment, how you experience parenthood, the chance of disabilities etc. I think the odds are better for some more than others. But even if the odds are good, it's still a gamble. And like the book said, no thinks they're drawing the short straw. And I think what the forest metaphor means to me is, not how good the odds are as a basis of how ethical making this bet is, but if the bet being made is ethical at all. You can make the arguement that Yuriko's circumstance is due to bad parents and that it could have been avoided. Another story that I find myself thinking of is the accounts of a pair of sisters who survived the Nagasaki atomic bomb. I had to watch the documentary for a class and I can't find it right now but basically, the sisters were the only ones in their family who survived the bomb. They both had life threatening injuries and saw the horrific impact of all the people dying around them. At the time, they were only children. Once they go to their 20s, the older sibling committed suicide. She couldn't take the pain of her life experiences and the trauma that came with it, even though her physical injuries long healed. The sister who continued living who is now roughly in her late 60s, early 70s, said that some people see her living as a testament to her bravery and resilience, that even though she went through something like this, that she decided to continue living and that she still saw life worth living. But she clarifies this and says that she's not brave or resilient. This event bled into every ounce of her life. If anything, her sister who took her life was the brave one because she could face death and see that as an resolve from the pain. She didn't continue living because life was worth living. She continued living because she wasn't brave enough to die. And yes, I understand that the atomic bombing is a very extreme example. But my point is that things completly out of your control, even if you have taken every precaution to hedge the bets in your favor, can create a situation for your kid that would make their life no longer worth living. And in that case, was it worth having them in the first place? Again, you're not betting on your life, you're betting on another person's life.

Sorry but what’s the argument for that? Euthanasia can be morally justified in cases of hopeless unbearable suffering. It’s easy to underestimate the kinds of suffering that exist in this world until you witness them firsthand. If someone as intelligent and self-aware as Leo contemplated suicide because of some stomach or digestive problems imagine what people with far more devastating conditions might endure. Think of elderly people who are completely disabled and have lost all independence or those who are incontinent and require constant care. Think of someone who has lost both arms or legs in a war or someone who survived a fire but suffered catastrophic burns over most of their body.ther are also children born with extremely rare and severe genetic disorders like two heads stuck in one body Go spend some time in a hospital’s emergency room or intensive care unit. You’ll see that unimaginable suffering is a reality for many people. euthanasia can be morally valid in certain extreme cases where there is no realistic hope of recovery and the suffering is unbearable.

@Zenterus To me, it seems like you are the only few here who actually understands what it takes to go out there to meet random people. Being 100% authentic is social suicide in most social situations (especially if you are deep into spirituality and self-actualization). As you said, you will alienate 99%+ people. And overall, I agree with you. That is what must be done. That’s why I also don’t optimize my IG for max stage orange girls. I have slow art, and art that requires you to be able to feel deep. I write pholosophical texts. Texts that asks you to reflect on your selfishness and biases. All this is to screen for the few rare individuals who actually resonates. So I agree with you. That being said, it is hard to accept that and be so alone. Which is what I am struggling with. I am being vulnerable and humble by admitting all this here, yet I get attacked with ”you think you are superior, better than others”, which I find weird. Kinda disappointing to be honest. Also, this thread wasn’t just about me, as I made it very clear, yet many of you are just making this about me and my ”superiority complex”.

There is evidence to support the claim that open, responsible conversations about suicide are generally more protective in the long run, over silence or non allowance. Blanket bans on these sorts of topics can lead to possibilities of inducing shame, isolation and mistakenly creating beliefs we are not allowed to speak on these topics. The evidence does NOT show talking about suicide always prevents suicide, or that any discussion is beneficial. A lot of this topic is tightly woven into questions around sovereignty/agency, personal responsibility and ethics. Terminal health diagnosis that cement us into a slowly declining quality of life often lead to suicidal thoughts as a possible solution. I know my relative who was recently diagnosed with MND is seriously considering assisted suicide. At the end of the day it's always how, by whom, and in what context suicide is talked about.

I once had a bad trip that was so bad, I literally almost committed suicide. I had asked God to teach me why evil existed in the world and why anyone would want to commit suicide since life is so precious. God responded by answering my query by hallucinating Satan and Satan tormented me by hallucinating situations that showed me that I had no control over my life. Basically I lost control over my mind, and got to find out what Insanity is. Since your mind is the Universe you can literally hallucinate events like people doing things, technology doing things for example I went out for a drive and I hallucinated my GPS refusing to work and I got completely lost and couldn't get home. Also since I was hallucinating Satan, Satan would hit me with painful sensations in my body and then laugh and mock me that it had control over my life and my life was ruined. So in my anger and defiance I drove to a gun pawn shop (found it by chance) and walked in and asked for the cheapest gun and bullets. The store owner lied and said he was out of ammunition. When I walked in, it was like they KNEW I wanted to kill myself without them knowing. Anyway I eventually was able to get to the hospital and get some anti-psychotics. I now know why someone would commit suicide. First of all you cannot blame ANYONE for that decision. The only reason a person commits suicide is because they believe they have zero control in this world of survival to create a life for themselves that they can at least tolerate. No matter who you are, you are NOT above suicide. All that has happened in your situation is life hasn't gotten bad enough for you that you think it isn't worth living. With that said, I don't regret the experience I had because it taught me ALOT.

Catholic church already castrate enough the individual freedom with their philosophy of absolute terror , nothing happens if some voices of freedom sounds sometimes . Leo maybe should be, let's say ambiguous, but not because the suicidal people, because his interest and possible responsibility. Anyway, for me suicide is absolutely impossible unless being so sick without hope that your life is hell. If your health is ok, just fight, anything else is being an absolute coward imo. I don't know if there is reincarnation or anything similar but intuitively I feel that this life has consequences.

People looking for reasons to off themselves read past this and focus on this: I left it out because I don't want to have to explain how your little disclaimers are useless when your whole point is basically "suicide is okay if you're suffering enough". And obviously, most everyone contemplating suicide seriously will think that their suffering is enough. It's not that I've not thought about the truly stuck minority. It's that you have no way to target them specifically, which means your rhetoric is net-negative. Obviously.

Which is why I said: "Life is a gift. Figure out how to make it work." You deliberately leave that out. My position is the nuanced one. Not yours. You only think about the majority but not the truly stuck minority. Telling people not to commit suicide does not stop suicide. This misunderstands how serious suicide is. Suicide is so serious that talking someone down from it is not going to work in a serious case. Your words do nothing to ease their daily suffering. "Don't do it, brah" is not a serious solution.

You don't have to lie, you just don't have to contribute. And it's not about pleasing me. I'm pointing out your immaturity such that you might reconsider your position and see how your rhetoric contributes to the suicide of people in temporary suffering. But we do know the vast majority of suicides are not the rare cases your framing targets. The vast majority contemplating suicide are in temporary states of suffering that will pass. Maybe for every 1,000 people reading your suicide rhetoric, one of them fits your framing. But the other 999 are using your rhetoric just the same as the one. It's obviously a net-negative, and it's not even close.

I am not going to lie just to please you. Humans have the right to commit suicide. You do not have the right to tell them it is bad or wrong just because it offends you. You have no idea how difficult their lives are.

Even if it's not true, the correct position on suicide is "It's always bad and you should never do it under any circumstances." Your need to demonstrate your sophisticated, nuanced philosophy or metaphysics matters so much that you'll broadcast tacit endorsement to susceptible people.

Authentic here? Or authentic socializing? Here I am being 100% authentic. 100% authentic with normies is a social suicide, as leo made a blogpost about recently. I try to be as authentic as possible but there is no way I can be 100% authentic. Perhaps 75-85% max.

@HojoI am too coward to suicide anyway, I decided to live my life till the end of this perspective.

I can understand someone committing suicide if they have a shitty life. Like being particularly ugly, mentaly ill for some reason, disabled, and/or sick.

I’m not sure if this applies to everyone but it did for me . for anyone struggling with depression or thinking of suicide I find expression highly curative . Talk to someone you know and let it all out. Say everything. Don’t keep it pent up inside . That hurts more than death itself.

Surrendering your attachment to being a human is distinct from dying by suicide.

He obviously must give a diplomatic enough answer. You know that certain people on this community have committed suicide in the past and we don’t want this tragedy happening again . Obviously it’s a sensitive topic and Leo has to be careful not to beat you over the head with the truth . the truth is god doesn’t care about your suffering. God has bigger concerns than soothing the pain of a little speck of dust lost in infinite desert. He clearly stated that existentially speaking there is no ought and especially no negative value to suicide . He also said you can’t generalize it like that and say suicide is always a mistake . Obviously if you are in chronic incurable pain you are better off dead ..but not the case if you have some silly first world problem or something . It depends.

Obviously I am not going to endorse suicide. Life is a gift. Figure out how to make it work.

btw. did you just establish your public position to be morally against suicide in almost any case, or is there a non-obvious deeper meaning to it? I‘d understand if you just decided on the first. But how cool would it be, if there was an ultra deep reason as to why suicide is metaphysical inferior to dreaming on. feel free to share your thoughts.

Nobody knows how reality works. Maybe you're living simultaneously in 124 dimensions, and every time you grab your dick thinking dirty thoughts, baby Jesus cries and sends you one eon to hell (because he loves you) Or maybe when you die, it doesn't matter if you're a serial killer of children or a saint. The point is, there's only one guide: your inner guide. If you feel that suicide is truly the right choice, the integral choice, the one that will allow you to open your heart to death without fear, without shame, and with joy, then suicide is perfect.

"WAKE UP, YOU ARE DREAMING" is a very pro suicide thing to say🤔

My perspective is this: Life is a precious gift, so do everything you can not to squander it. However, suicide is not some evil thing that humans make it out to be. Death comes for everyone. But if you are considering suicide, I strongly suggest you exhaust all other options first. You are free to commit suicide, but those that do are probably making a mistake. Although not always. Bottom line is, you never know if someone doing it is making a mistake or not. Be careful not to assume.