Mondsee

@Basman no need to mix this up with politics or religion, this is about having the ability to comfortably plant your butt on the ground. And just for the record, I do find @Leo Gura‘s post about meditating on a chair useful. For everyone struggling to comfortably seat crosslegged on the floor, and that’s the vast majority in the West, it’s a good reminder that you shouldn’t use that as an excuse to give up on the attempt of establishing a meditation practice. The tips on what type of chair to get if that’s your case are totally fine as well. The delivery of the message, however, starting with the suggestion that you should “stop meditating crosslegged” without any nuance whatsoever, and blaming that the only reason why this is done is out of mindless conformity and poverty, is nothing short of plain ignorance.

@r0ckyreed haha funny and fitting response, but also an excellent example of the type of philosophizing/intellectualizing that gets people lost on the path of jnana yoga.

@r0ckyreed Leo was referring to kriya yoga. What you're talking about is the jnana/gnana yoga path. Very valid if you find that is what you resonate with most, and can keep up a consistent practice, but it's not for everyone as most people tend to get lost in intellectualizing before realizing anything. For jnana yoga it it is indeed irrelevant how you decide to seat (or wipe your ass, for that matter), as long as you can keep a steady focus on self-inquiry, however for the vast majority of seekers, they need to start practicing self-inquiry during a dedicated meditation time, and for that, whatever position you can be in for the longest without aches distracting you, or you falling asleep is the best. I would argue if you have mastered it, that would without a doubt be siddhasana.

@Basman "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music" (-Nietzsche, I think) @koops Good stuff. For anyone trying: do the butterfly exercise for a few minutes EVERY SINGLE DAY with the actual intention to improve a little and get a bit further every time. It will get you there. General fitness and flexibility are assumed, stick to modifications if you're dealing with injuries, or feel like you're hurting yourself.

True for anyone who hasn't yet mastered siddhasana. Again: correlation ≠ causation 😂 why the hell would you get yourself a chair if you don't need one? I can afford myself a walker too, but I can walk without one!! Related to this, and admittedly maybe part of the reason why I'm even bothering to respond to this topic, this is a true story: when I moved out to live on my own as a student, I was living on a modest budget, but could've for sure afforded some chairs, and yet, I decided I didn't need any. The student dorms came with a small desk and one chair, but that was it. I bought myself a low table, where I would eat, and didn't invest any money or effort to get a dining table or chairs. Having friends visiting and finding it outrageous or straight out impossible to sit on the ground to eat showed me the how chair-dependent the Western society has become. Do what works best for you, just know that the main reason for a crosslegged position is not only looking like a yogi, or avoiding the chance of falling asleep, but this is something only you can prove to yourself over time through consistent practice. Yes, a guru may tell you to do it like that without offering more explanations at first, which is precisely what can be misinterpreted as conformity, but when you start becoming more clearly aware of the energy flow in your body, you wouldn't trade crosslegged sitting for any alternative or modification around.

@SimpleGuy Anything that works for you at your current level and helps you keep a consistent practice is good, but if you’re serious about following the yogic path, I wouldn’t give up on trying to eventually reach the “full” asanas. I know those stools from Christian spiritual approaches that spend long time in prayer/singing meditation. Works well for that, but I still prefer sitting with my butt on the ground.

@Natasha Tori Maru it may sound dramatic, but it’s the reality, it’s just that in the West we have normalized disability in many ways. We unfortunately have the logic completely backwards: if sitting on the ground works (cross-legged, squatting, or however you prefer), then chair is unnecessary, not the other way around. Chairs were originally invented as an item to signal status and authority, and then we got dependent on them. The irony is that despite their normalization, in a way they continue to serve their original purpose, with us interpreting the lack of chairs as poverty. Thinking about it, chairs are a better example for conformity than sitting crosslegged 😄

@bazera I’m not demonizing chairs. They’re surely better than nothing for those with any physical impediments that make sitting crosslegged hard. Yoga doesn’t discriminate and offers modifications to meet anyone at their current level. But in my own experience, I’ve come to experience that the “full poses” are the way they are for a good reason. And no, the reason is definitely NOT that “that’s how we’ve always done it”, though it may seem so for those with little experience. Remember that more often than not, correlation doesn’t mean causation.

@Leo Gura best to stop making a fool out of yourself while you’re chair-dependent. Recognizing what your entry level is, and doing whatever works at that point is very valid for a start, but If you’re serious about going deeper in the yoga path, my sincere advice to you would be to make a progressive effort to improve your physical condition, such that you may one day know the privilege of sitting on the ground in bliss for hours on end, without your back / knees pulling you out of it. Godspeed!

Hahaha ooooooh @Leo Gura! I respect you, but when it comes to yoga, you truly have no clue what you’re talking about 🤭

@Leo Gura fair enough, fair enough, I just think it would be wise to reframe your advice such that it reflects that it comes from your own personal frustrating experience, which is not universal, nor superior.

@Leo Gura will be hard to see without the counterfactual of crosslegged sitting, but again, if sitting on a chair is currently working better for you, by all means go for it. Like I already said, I do consider brute-forcing a crosslegged position while in pain to be actually stupid.

I’m not saying anything against you offering practical advice to your westerner followers. I’m just inviting you to reconsider your bold statement that “Cross-legged meditation is stupid, unhealthy, and done out of mindless conformity”

@Leo Gura Yogananda’s books were also written with Westerner readers in mind who cannot comfortably sit in a crosslegged position for long periods of time without aching …probably because they started believing sitting on the ground is for the poor and stuck to chairs and elevated furniture instead including toilets btw, which in turn led to less squatting and even less flexibility. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ edit: just for the record, I haven’t read Yogananda’s books.

@Leo Gura Claiming that cross-legged meditation is stupid just shows your level of inexperience with yoga and the rise of kundalini. If meditating on a chair is currently working better for you, go for it. Meditating while aching due to lack of flexibility is also stupid. I would, however, sincerely invite you to follow your own advice and remain open-minded to the idea that you may not have even scratched the surface when it comes to serious yoga. The following is not a critique, just an observation. A serious pursuit of Kriya Yoga requires a style that is not yours: humbling yourself before your own ignorance, fully accepting that a realized guru knows better than you, and following their instructions precisely and without modification, even if you must do so for decades without noticing any progress. Pretty sure you cringed/rolled your eyes just by reading that. Someone who resonates with this approach, however, keeps going trusting that their Guru has their best interest at heart (awakening) and will guide them along the path most suitable for them, even if it doesn’t seem like it at times. After a long time of carefully tending what was once a mere seed, the tree will bear fruit. It seems to me that you tend to want more evidence of progress along the way. Fair enough, but then don’t dismiss other approaches by labeling them as stupid conformity. PS. For Indians we are the freaks who don’t squat to poop (as our anatomy is meant to) and sit instead, thereby getting shit smeared in our but-cheeks that we then just wipe away with a piece of TP. Not sure we can really call this superior to washing with water and your bare hands.