Why Absolute Awakening Is An Illusion Per Se

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Water by the River said:

We align here, I have written similiar things in the past. It is a matter how words are used...

Yes I'm trying to understand that about the illusion, maybe it's the same thing just in another angle

[Bazooka Jesus]

1 hour ago, Princess Arabia said:

I'm trying to figure out why my cat is free and I'm not.

Mylady, you are making a lot of assumptions. What if you drop your assumptions and simply realize what undeniably IS?

(Easier said than done, I know. But getting lost in the fairytale land of the conceptual monkey mind certainly doesn't help.)

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

But seems that they used them as real definitions, they believe in them 

Who is "they"?

Look at @Water by the River. From the way he speaks, I can tell that he is not (overly) attached to the words he is using as pointers (even though he certainly has a penchant for Buddhist vocabulary, lol). Others on here... not so much.

[Javfly33]

1 hour ago, Princess Arabia said:

I'm trying to figure out why my cat is free and I'm not. Didn't we come from the same Source. If you say because I have a mind and the cat doesn't, and all this structure stuff and breaking limits etcetc, why isn't my cat trying to do all that. Of course i'm being facetious here but i'm trying to make a point which is humans seem to be the only species that got duped.

1 hour ago, Princess Arabia said:

Didn't we come from the same Source.

There is not an "I" in the Cat Consciousness. There is Only "perception".

For suffering to exist there must be an "I".

At one point you imagined there is an "I" in perception, in that moment ilusion of You being a Human, and outside being Not You gets created.

You can have a mind and still be free of suffering. If the Mind/Thoughts appear as things within you. Not literally You.

The moment "I" means = the thoughts, inevitably suffering appears. 

Notice that your heart pumping all the time is not a problem to you, yet is there all the time. But since you dont identify as your heart palpitations, there is not an obsession to "how do i make my heart palpitations dissappear"?

You identity with Thoughts, then there is an obsession to stop the Thoughts. The moment "I" is nowhere to be found, Infinite Intelligence Will choose Thoughts as choose pants. That is Enlightment. Knowing Who you are.

 

[Breakingthewall]

11 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

There is not an "I" in the Cat Consciousness. There is Only "perception".

For suffering to exist there must be an "I".

You could torture a cat and it would suffer, and if you torture it a lot it would become traumatized and crazy. At the end it's not so different. 

The cat is a flow pattern of intelligence, just like you, so I believe that in some way it is also a self, an isolated bubble of perception. The only difference is that he does not suffer if another cat tells him that he is ugly, because that frequency does not exist for him, but if he is in heat and the other cats do not want to mate with him, he will suffer, although later he will not create a self-concept of himself as incel cat and he will torture himself with him because he has no social dimension

[r0ckyreed]

10 hours ago, Razard86 said:

What you are missing is you can die without physically dying. For example 5 MEO DMT trip is the same as physical death. THAT is what you are missing. So you can awaken Globally by going Infinite and through that the relative is dissolved into the Infinite. When Leo talks about total awakening and degrees he is talking about the Absolute creating a relative concept and teaching it to you. This teaching is intuitive. I'll give an example.

Let's say a person never got to see or experience a waterfall. Then they have a spiritual awakening that causes the relative world to cease to exist. In this Absolute Potentiality they experience what it is like to be a waterfall by becoming a waterfall. Waterfall is a distinction within consciousness, it is relative. So first they became pure potentiality which is total, then they actualized that potentiality and experienced Waterfall Consciousness. Since Reality is an intelligence they can intuit things about the gravitational pull and the molecular structure of the water without having to study it in a lab because they WERE the waterfall. When they come back to being human that intuitive knowing of Waterfall Consciousness is given back to the Human Consciousness and the Human Consciousness does its best to transmit this knowing in the form of language using the existing models that it has for explanations of reality.

What I just described was why Being is Prior to Knowing, and how Being and Knowing are ONE. A scientist studies a waterfall, but his knowledge will always be limited, but if he became the waterfall, then his knowledge expands because it's direct. Just like everybody who meets you experiences you as an OTHER unless they become you. 

r0ckyreed is a specific type of consciousness. Anyone that you deal with will never get or understand you completely unless they can drop their consciousness's barrier they have constructed and experience themselves as you. This is possible and completely destroys the materialist paradigm. Until you experience this for yourself you are stuck in the realm of speculation which most on this forum are at. They guess and try to logically explicate what is possible, but nothing can substitute an awakening. 

Awakening is pure insanity to the non-awakened mind because it is the realm where there are NO RULES. Logic....is a set of rules, Reality doesn't have to follow rules.

I answered this objection in my original post. I stated that even after an awakening, you will think you have reached a global maxima but are really at a local maxima. Trips can convince you that you are more awake than you are. Leo already retracts things that he has claimed with absolute certainty in the past, so what makes this new claim any different?

I also suggested that the human mind will always have constraints and limitations on it that you cannot imagine while still being in the human form. The thing with a DMT trip is you might have a cessation for a period, but your mind and its limits still exist. People with NDEs may have a cessation, but when they come back, they are also bringing back the limitations of consciousness and insight. Just think about it. On a DMT trip, you can reach a great insight so great that your mind has trouble understanding it and sometimes forgets it or is unable to understand it like a complex dream. When you dream, you are entering a different state and when you wake up, sometimes insights from that other state can become inaccessible now. Survival puts limitations on insight. That is why I said physical death is the global maxima because that is an awakening with 0 interference from survival. Most people don’t understand that the brain is designed for survival and not awakening. Good luck changing millions of years of evolution through DMT. Your human consciousness cannot unimagine the design of Universal Consciousness. It isn’t going to work. You can have insights into the nature of reality but they will be a local maxima if at best because if you could awaken global maximally, you would no longer be human. To survive is to be at a local maxima. I am not sure how else I can explain this and have it make sense.

Edited March 4 by r0ckyreed

[Reciprocality]

Awakening is not something positive, it is negative.

If you were dreaming and then the dream disappeared the mind-state of the disappearance would negate the dream, as will narratives be negated when they are no longer taken for reality.

Your conception of the infinite and the absolute are terms that deals with the thing that instead of becoming aware of itself through its relation to other things becomes aware of itself in the absence of both them and the relation. Just as a container gets filled by a waterhoe are you filled by a narrative of yourself, imagine what happens if when you pour the water in the container the water does not spread, the water would naturally become denser during the pouring, this is how nature operates everywhere without exception. The fewer the narratives of yourself spontaneously occur the more multiplied your consciousness will become at that time.

This is one step away from a proper conception of time, but let us not get carried away.

Edited March 4 by Reciprocality

[Reciprocality]

Is it not curious how nature in all its infinite bliss becomes the narrative surrounding of you, all by itself? It is almost like it does it for a purpose.

Whatever you do you are confined within limits, will you be the intention of an appearance or will you intend to appear as though you are without the intention to appear? Could you possibly change the course of natural things, could you change who you already was into becoming someone who did not want to appear, why except for the purpose of appearance would you possibly do so? Please respond if you know of an answer.

Edited March 4 by Reciprocality

[Reciprocality]

Most of you are brutally forcing yourself into a state of stagnation because of the attempt on your part, and I kid you not, to be coherent. You have a principle against your own nature, and every time you see in yourself a sign of this nature you judge it.

You then rationalise that your conceptions of infinity and the absolute pertains to experiences literally so that the the inhibition is justified.

It is a product of unresolved misanthropy, why else would you have a principle against yourself, know that your principle is deemed to fail, for it needs itself to work.

 

Egoism and self-delusions goes hand in hand with the deepest consciousness, as does physical reality with mind.

[Mu_]

8 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's the same old crazy debate, the enlightened people who say that your body is a concept and reality is an empty hologram. They are wrong, let's say that the ve brake too late. It is one thing to get out of the learned human mind, from the conceptual prison, and another to become a crazy nihilist. Reality is the unlimited living, and it is absolute. That is to say, absolutely real, and this is an idea as far as I am transmitting it to you, but it has a real basis, like all ideas. The conceptual world is real, as a conceptual world, what you cannot do is lose yourself in its meaning, but its substance is the living infinity, like everything that exists, and there are levels of perception of this, which are not conceptual

 

No doubt what you express is an experience We go through, and I think we ultimately agree that there is more than the conceptual "only being human reality".  My comment was to a part of the experience referred to as "ideas", "levels", "conceptual" as having no realness as well in of themselves.  This is isn't nihilism what Im talking about.  I'm not saying this is empty either, this to is a concept.  The body ultimately isn't a body either, and never has been a body, and yes this pointer breaks down eventually to, as it to isn't what it appears to be, and it doesn't break down into nothingness or meaninglesness, these to are concepts.....  But again I think we are saying and understanding the same things but perhaps with different language, nuances and differences. 

Edited March 4 by Mu_

[Princess Arabia]

4 hours ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

Mylady, you are making a lot of assumptions. What if you drop your assumptions and simply realize what undeniably IS?

I wasn't really asking it for a definitive answer. I'm already free, like the thread I posted before. I'm not saying the egoic mind is free but who I inherently am. As everybody else. This talk about what undeniably IS ....what is the IS. Isn't it "IS" that I asked the question, Isn't that what happened. Does this "IS" only refer to the sun, the moon, the birds chirping and the rain falling, or does this "IS" includes my asking the question why is my cat free and I'm not. Is that a part of this undeniably IS. 

I bet you I will get an answer filled with riddles and metaphors and non-duality speech. Hehe

[Reciprocality]

Just as the physical universe is a quantity of extension your consciousness is a quantity of intensity. But it is not so intense that it is infinite, it is instead the thinking mind which attempts to compare the mindstate of purposivity with the mindstate lacking purposivity, the latter is given in intensity what it takes away from the former in its differentiation.

Purposivity is found in everything humans are doing at every single instant of their life, if you take 4 from 5 and toss those 4 away it would be very weird if you still had 5, just as weird would it be if your consciousness did not change when it is decoupled from the guiding principle of life, purposivity.

Purposivity is everywhere present in abstractions and thinking, thus when you take away purposivity from actuality you can not be left with something conceivable or thinkable such as infinity. 

[James123]

17 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

So, I have made several posts about this topic, and I have been wanting to discuss the matter again after Leo's Blog Post on Liberal Vs. Conservativism Simulation with the Global and Local Maxima concepts. So, here I go. But first, you must watch the video to get the idea of global and local maxima.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p11-oggW1E&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Factualized.org%2F&source_ve_path=MTc4NDI0

The thing is that when you awaken, you will think you have reached the global maxima, but in reality you are still at a local maxima. There is no getting rid of that self-deception. It is kind of impossible to awaken to a true global maxima because reality is infinite and your human form will always be finite. The reason why I say "kind of impossible" is because I think it is possible to awaken global maximally, but it is through physical death. You see, when you awaken and reach a high state of truth and understanding, human survival puts constraints on the degrees of awakening possible. Just being a human is already an inherent limitation on consciousness.

Just think about an alien state of intelligence and how they may have significant degrees of understanding of reality than we do. Now, think of an ant. Do you think that an ant could ever reach an awakened state compared to a human? No! It can only reach an awakened state relative to being an ant. But what would that even look like? We cannot even imagine this because we are not an ant. Now, do you think a human could reach an awakened state of consciousness? Yes? Relative to what? The awakened state you have as a human will be no more deeper than that of an ant because reality is infinite. You will have an alien who will already have a deeper understanding of reality than you ever will. And then there will be another type of alien who has an even deeper understanding and so on and so on.

Awakening seems to be only applied to the species. When we say Leo is Awake, we are essentially saying that he has reached a high level of understanding compared to the average human level of consciousness. When we say Leo is Awake, we are not saying that he is global maximally Awake, but he is local maximally awake because there are still infinite degrees of awakening. Buddhism is a local maxima even though there are some Buddhists will think the Buddha was global maximally awake. The same with Jesus and the same with Leo. Do you see the problem? Awakening is relative in a sense because there will always be higher levels of awakenings. So that means that one awakening you have will be relative to a higher or lower awakening that you could have. For instance, no-self is a form of awakening, but it isn't the highest. Understanding how God exists, what reality is, and why there is evil/conflict is another type of awakening that you have. And all of those insights will be affected and constrained by the limitations of human understanding and the influence of human survival. The paradox is Leo is now talking about genetics impacting relationships/sexuality, but I still think genetics is overlooked when it comes to spirituality. Our human genes and brain already limit our understanding of reality because these were created by Reality. Do you think we can ever comprehend Reality with the brain and genes that reality gave us? I am basically using Leo's argument that "Brains Do Not Exist" against itself here. If our brain is imaginary and if understanding happens through a functioning imaginary brain and imaginary genetics, then any awakening produced will also be imaginary?

I tried to explain this concept via Godel's Incompleteness Theorem and now I have explained it via Global/Local Maxima. I am not sure how else I can explain this insight to you all. But the global and local maxima I think is the closest idea that I can think of to illustrate that there is no final or global maxima awakening. Leo is awake relative to the human species and 3D perception. An alien is awake relative to the alien species at a 4D or whatever dimension. Death is the absolute awakening because that is the moment where the finite form merges back into the Infinite Source. The finite form can never grasp the whole. Reality is infinitely mysterious.

What are your thoughts? What am I missing? 

You are still thinking a lot. When you think less and day by day almost attachment with thinking almost become 0, you will vanish and realize that You are already at highest level. Your true nature at the highest level. Only attachment with thoughts lower you, or make you far away from your true nature. That's all. 

[Princess Arabia]

2 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

When you dream, you are entering a different state and when you wake up, sometimes insights from that other state can become inaccessible now. Survival puts limitations on insight. That is why I said physical death is the global maxima because that is an awakening with 0 interference from survival. Most people don’t understand that the brain is designed for survival and not awakening. Good luck changing millions of years of evolution through DMT. Your human consciousness cannot unimagine the design of Universal Consciousness.

Doesn't all this fly out the window if it's all imaginary. If the brain is a figment of consciousness then consciousness is beyond the brain. Seems like you're trying to rationalize and reason your way into this phenomenon, but ill leave it up to Razaard to answer you because I know he will. You're making good points but if its a dream then reason and logic won't cut it in everything and there will be glitches.

[Bazooka Jesus]

59 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

I bet you I will get an answer filled with riddles and metaphors and non-duality speech. Hehe

Sure will. Here we go:

59 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

This talk about what undeniably IS ....what is the IS. Isn't it "IS" that I asked the question, Isn't that what happened.

"I asked the question" is a mental story. What is that which the story appears in?

59 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Does this "IS" only refer to the sun, the moon, the birds chirping and the rain falling, or does this "IS" includes my asking the question why is my cat free and I'm not. Is that a part of this undeniably IS.

IS refers to THIS... the former is just an abbreviation, or rather a cutting in half of the latter. (Don't worry, you can take any part of the word that you like, it doesn't make the slightest difference.)

Now the million dollar question is... what is THIS?

Again, the real answer won't be a verbal one. So anything I tell you will just be a bunch of

that points to something which both includes and transcends all words.

Was that cryptic enough? I sure do hope so.

 

Edited March 4 by Bazooka Jesus

[Princess Arabia]

6 minutes ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

Was that cryptic enough? I sure hope so

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Is that a part of the undeniably IS or THIS, or All that is. Lol

Sure honey, you explained the "IS" perfectly well. No need for more ISSING. Then it'll turn into WAS-SING. Then I'll be asking to define that. So, I'll return to the NOW-ING, and forget about the KNOW-ING, hehe hehe.

Edited March 4 by Princess Arabia

[Bazooka Jesus]

1 hour ago, Princess Arabia said:

Sure honey, you explained the "IS" perfectly well. No need for more ISSING. Then it'll turn into WAS-SING. Then I'll be asking to define that. So, I'll return to the NOW-ING, and forget about the KNOW-ING, hehe hehe.

Mmmm, sounds like you're getting the hang of this.

[Javfly33]

5 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

You could torture a cat and it would suffer, and if you torture it a lot it would become traumatized and crazy. At the end it's not so different. 

The cat is a flow pattern of intelligence, just like you, so I believe that in some way it is also a self, an isolated bubble of perception. The only difference is that he does not suffer if another cat tells him that he is ugly, because that frequency does not exist for him, but if he is in heat and the other cats do not want to mate with him, he will suffer, although later he will not create a self-concept of himself as incel cat and he will torture himself with him because he has no social dimension

There is an intelligence that makes him survive and react accordingly, but is there a self there? 

Self = Something existing within perception.

If there is no self, in my view the Cat is like a programed artificial intelligence, It reacts to pain, It has "software" programmed into It. But there is nothing/no one " behind the eyes of the Cat. Nothing/no one is experiencing the Cat perception. You could even say the Cat doesnt even have a consciousness of existing. 

I could be wrong, i dont know really if cats develop egos. I think ego is developed mainly because of language and concepts so i my Guess is ego is Only within human world. 

[Breakingthewall]

22 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

There is an intelligence that makes him survive and react accordingly, but is there a self there? 

Self = Something existing within perception.

If there is no self, in my view the Cat is like a programed artificial intelligence, It reacts to pain, It has "software" programmed into It. But there is nothing/no one " behind the eyes of the Cat. Nothing/no one is experiencing the Cat perception. You could even say the Cat doesnt even have a consciousness of existing. 

I could be wrong, i dont know really if cats develop egos. I think ego is developed mainly because of language and concepts so i my Guess is ego is Only within human world. 

I think that the cat has an ego in the sense that it clearly differentiates between itself and what is external to it, it knows many things, such as that fire burns, water is cold, food is good, dogs are dangerous, etc. The cat's perception works in a purely physical sphere, it knows nothing else and is totally connected to the source of existence, so it is happy as long as it does not suffer pain, hunger or cold. While this does not happen there is a lot of mental space to flow without obstacles. On another level, the cat is a perfect energetic pattern exactly like a human, which creates itself taking a specific form, eyes, brain, circulatory system, etc. The only difference with a human is that our sphere of perception is largely mental because we are connected to other humans through language and the mind, creating a collective organism, so our source of suffering is not only cold, pain, etc., but thousands of small social nuances and projections to the future and the past necessary to fit into the hive. This occupies 100% of the mental space, and the mind is an anxious vibration that overshadows reality. 

The thing is to realize that this mental software is not the reality, is a mental software in the reality, so it can't, by definition, contain the reality. When you see that, you disconnect the software easily. You are not more real than the cat, the cat is the infinite intelligence, same than us, it's not less infinite, is exactly the same substance, everything is, so you can turn of the mind and focus in the real more or less easily when it's obvious . Always are interference because the mind is powerful and exist, but when it's deactivate, it's a fact, I totally different frequency 

[Breakingthewall]

53 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

There is an intelligence that makes him survive and react accordingly, but is there a self there?

That intelligence is what the cat is, same than us. There is an intelligence than make us think, react, etc. This intelligence is the reality, the thing is removing everything until just this intelligence remains. That's the game, there is nothing else, but the thing is that that intelligence is infinite, so there are degrees of opening to it's substance, or at least is what I think, maybe I'm wrong and as some people say there are not levels

[Yimpa]

17 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

That's the game, there is nothing else, but the thing is that that intelligence is infinite, so there are degrees of opening to it's substance, or at least is what I think, maybe I'm wrong and as some people say there are not levels

Does it ultimately matter if you’re right or wrong?