Incels - pity over mockery?

[bebotalk]

I know that there are various strands of incels. But then a common theme amongst them is angst at not getting dates or sex.

I never really got why they'd get to this state. to be honest, I used to mock them. Nobody has a "right" to sex. Yes, we all have a right to be or feel sexual. But not even hot people have a true right to it - as in it's granted by others at demand. Hot people still earn sex, even though it's easier for them. Sex is a want and not a need, unlike food or water. 

But lately, I've started to pity incels. I feel most of them have some kind of neurodiversity. I wonder why a person would feel they're "owed" sex. What kind of mentality or life experiences would make somebody feel that way? I often feel that incels didn't "get it". I feel most "get it" early in life, when they learn that looks matter, and humans are drawn to looks. We often "get" that hierarchies exist, as does privilege. And that nobody has a perfect or seamless life. Plenty of pretty women or hot men can have shitty lives, even if they fuck around a lot. Many porn stars are hot but have had histories of addictions, sexual assault, abusive families, bereavement, etc. Maybe a hottie woman whom incels might hate for sleeping around does so due to sexual assault, which can be a common symptom of such. Maybe they get harassed a lot, from wolf-whistling in public to groping. 

Should there be increased mental help for incels? Should they realise that life can be tough, and that we all have issues? Or be taught not to value sex that much? Contemporary sex positivity is a good thing. But even then, part of sex positivity is not valuing sex. It's one reason why asexuality is increasing in awareness these days. 

 

[something_else]

1 hour ago, bebotalk said:

Sex is a want and not a need, unlike food or water.

I would argue it is a need. At least, love and belonging are a need.

It's certainly very hard to live a remotely enjoyable life without any kind of intimacy for most people.

[mr_engineer]

This issue is very nuanced. 

• I agree that mockery does nothing to help them. 
• However, to 'pity' them, would mean, to agree with the black pill ideology. And I don't think that's a good idea. I think the word you're looking for is 'empathy'. You can put yourself in their shoes without necessarily agreeing with them. 
• If you put yourself in their shoes and look into the black pill, you will realize very quickly that it is heavily based on online-dating stats. Meaning, it is the dating-ideology of someone who doesn't leave their house, who only relies on online-dating and social-media DMs. 

I think that the root-level solution is to make the internet a safer space for men. If you want to help them, that's how you help them. Here's why. 

It is true that the issue is that they're not going out and touching grass. But, the more you tell them to do that, the more invalidating it's going to feel to them, because they're subscribed to the blackpill ideology. So, the more resistant they'll be to doing that. And, the reason for holding onto the blackpill ideology is not necessarily that they're 'lazy' (or that the blackpill ideology is true - it's NOT), it's that the media and internet-spaces have waged a PR-war against men.

Men are being sent a message through the internet/media that women don't need them, the world doesn't need them. This is what makes someone want to sit in their room and play video-games all day, living in a nihilistic funk. It's not that 'life is too hard and I'm too lazy to deal with it'. 

So, how do you make the internet a safer space for men? Very simple. Moderate man-hate and have zero tolerance for it. The more people you see do that (because let's face it, the internet is run by real people), the more hope they'll feel and the more likely it is that they'll go out and touch grass. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by mr_engineer

[bebotalk]

3 minutes ago, something_else said:

I would argue it is a need. At least, love and belonging are a need.

It's certainly very hard to live a remotely enjoyable life without any kind of intimacy for most people.

Nobody dies without sex. At best it's a lesser-order "need". there are people who are celibate for life, or only need sex once a month or week. those who say it's a need are projecting. 

[bebotalk]

3 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

This issue is very nuanced. 

• I agree that mockery does nothing to help them. 
• However, to 'pity' them, would mean, to agree with the black pill ideology. And I don't think that's a good idea. I think the word you're looking for is 'empathy'. You can put yourself in their shoes without necessarily agreeing with them. 
• If you put yourself in their shoes and look into the black pill, you will realize very quickly that it is heavily based on online-dating stats. Meaning, it is the dating-ideology of someone who doesn't leave their house, who only relies on online-dating and social-media DMs. 

I think that the root-level solution is to make the internet a safer space for men. If you want to help them, that's how you help them. Here's why. 

It is true that the issue is that they're not going out and touching grass. But, the more you tell them to do that, the more invalidating it's going to feel to them, because they're subscribed to the blackpill ideology. So, the more resistant they'll be to doing that. And, the reason for holding onto the blackpill ideology is not necessarily that they're 'lazy' (or that the blackpill ideology is true), it's that the media and internet-spaces have waged a PR-war against men.

Men are being sent a message through the internet/media that women don't need them, the world doesn't need them. This is what makes someone want to sit in their room and play video-games all day, living in a nihilistic funk. It's not that 'life is too hard and I'm too lazy to deal with it'. 

So, how do you make the internet a safer space for men? Very simple. Moderate man-hate and have zero tolerance for it. The more people you see do that (because let's face it, the internet is run by real people), the more hope they'll feel and the more likely it is that they'll go out and touch grass. 

By pity, I mean having empathy for them, as they are lost and need help. It doesn't mean concurring with their ideology, which is nuts as it stands. 

 

[Emotionalmosquito]

3 hours ago, bebotalk said:

Sex is a want and not a need, unlike food or water. 

Sex is a need, a very strong one. It may not kill you quickly like going without food but it does kill you slowly and more painfully of self destruction 

[bebotalk]

43 minutes ago, Emotionalmosquito said:

Sex is a need, a very strong one. It may not kill you quickly like going without food but it does kill you slowly and more painfully of self destruction 

I don't agree. it's not a need in the truest sense. people's desire for sex differs. again, some project their sexual desire onto others. 

friendship is a desire but not a need. 

[Basman]

Incel ideology is a mind virus. It is a meme that spreads misery instead of humor. It preys on insecurity and makes you believe that you are helpless. Giving away your power is what make being an Incel both tragic and pathetic at the same time.

If we wish to "cure" Incels, they have to be decoupled from their ideology that makes them believe that they can't meaningfully change their lives. The problem with that is that their ideology gives them comfort and belonging. Being helpless is convenient and easy and I believe many Incels simply aren't interested in putting in the effort to create lasting change. They must want to change first.

One problem I see with modern culture is that it is often not safe for men to discuss their issues without being ridiculed or have their issues minimized (by comparing them to women's issues for example). These "pill" and Incel forums (redpill, MGTOW, men's rights, etc.) do represent spaces where men can discuss their issues and have them taken seriously but they follow with a lot of toxic baggage. There is a culture of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" for men's emotional issues.

I remember reading a thread about a guy who seemed to express what appeared to me as sexual trauma over having had unwitting sex with a trans women, where they didn't find out that fact until after having had sex. The OP wasn't really taken seriously, being asked if they where "insecure" and told that they shouldn't feel the way they did. And that was a thread on this very forum, a place where we are meant to better ourselves as a human beings. It shows just how implicit certain expectations we have of men that aren't reflective of the reality we live in.

If there is one thing we can do to help insecure and lonely men then it is to listen.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Basman

[something_else]

10 hours ago, bebotalk said:

Nobody dies without sex. At best it's a lesser-order "need". there are people who are celibate for life, or only need sex once a month or week. those who say it's a need are projecting. 

In theory if you put a person in an entirely isolated box for the rest of their life with access to food and water, but without any social interaction at all, they will survive.

But the stress of that situation will cause your body to have all sorts of ailments you wouldn’t otherwise have, and you may die 20 years earlier than you should. Stress is a deadly killer.

Not being loved will create enormous stress in your life and cause you all sorts of indirect problems. 

[bebotalk]

6 hours ago, something_else said:

In theory if you put a person in an entirely isolated box for the rest of their life with access to food and water, but without any social interaction at all, they will survive.

But the stress of that situation will cause your body to have all sorts of ailments you wouldn’t otherwise have, and you may die 20 years earlier than you should. Stress is a deadly killer.

Not being loved will create enormous stress in your life and cause you all sorts of indirect problems. 

It might for many, but not all. hence why I called it a lower-order need at best. 

Few things exist that are absolute needs - food and water are some of them. 

Stress affects people differently, and there are unique/subjective triggers for stress. 

A monk hermit could be willing to be alone and not suffer. But s/he still needs food and water. 

[eos_nyxia]

@bebotalk  Many people never get to this point you described at all, which is a sort of cognitive empathy. (Which may or may not be accompanied by the classic "feeler" empathy!)

People are people are people.

Sometimes hardship and adversity become an opportunity to expand one's perspective and build character and fortitude, no matter what the hardship is. Sometimes people instead succumb to bitterness and cling to their dogma and all their preconceptions and "truths" for dear life. 

19 hours ago, bebotalk said:

We often "get" that hierarchies exist, as does privilege. And that nobody has a perfect or seamless life. Plenty of pretty women or hot men can have shitty lives, even if they fuck around a lot. Many porn stars are hot but have had histories of addictions, sexual assault, abusive families, bereavement, etc. Maybe a hottie woman whom incels might hate for sleeping around does so due to sexual assault, which can be a common symptom of such. Maybe they get harassed a lot, from wolf-whistling in public to groping.

Some people have so little empathy of any sort that it is inconceivable that any experience could or would be worse than their experience, or experience which is categorically enough like their own experience.

Like what do you even say to a bunch of dudes who think that being rejected or ignored by women (whether imaginary or actual rejection) is on par with being SA'd by your family members, or think that any of the issues you mentioned are nonexistent because apparently being "hot" magically fixes everything??

Their world is tiny, constrictive, and goes about as far as their imagination reaches.

And yet, the suffering is real enough. I would not mock or pity people simply for suffering, but everyone makes at least some choices in response to truly uncontrollable factors and unfavourable odds.

Quote

Should there be increased mental help for incels? Should they realise that life can be tough, and that we all have issues? Or be taught not to value sex that much? Contemporary sex positivity is a good thing. But even then, part of sex positivity is not valuing sex. It's one reason why asexuality is increasing in awareness these days. 

For self-identified incels?

For loud and proud (?) self-identified incels: it's hard to help people who aren't willing to accept help, or do not recognize the "help" as being such. People will defend their right to be stubborn, etc.

They certainly don't want my "help" as a woman, unless by "help" they mean "engaging in their self-hating echo chamber".

Edited December 28, 2023 by eos_nyxia

[Lila9]

I don't pity them, I think they are responsible for their own well-being. Some individuals are addicted to misery and suffering because it's comfortable and familiar, they love to complain about it. It's not unique to incels but it's very common among incels. The incel conceptual cave feels very warm and comfy for them, it's a place where nothing is their fault or responsibility and everything is someone else's fault, women, other men, society, fate.

I wish there were programs to assist them, though I believe many of these individuals wouldn't appreciate it. No one can help those who don't want to help themselves, ultimately. Society can do things to encourage change, but it's up to them to be receptive to it.

[Hojo]

They just want to feel love and are wandering down a dark lonely hole looking for it. I'm not sure if I should pity anyone tho. I also think sex is a need just in the sense that it is necessary for life, also it is literally the one strive of mankind its the only reason anyone is doing anything. Men live to orgasm and feel God its the only reason the Eiffel tower and rocket ships exist. Our society is like one massive mating ritual. God is Sex. The first thing that happened was the biggest orgy session possible.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Hojo

[Thought Art]

How about love and compassion

[bebotalk]

On 28/12/2023 at 8:48 AM, Lila9 said:

I don't pity them, I think they are responsible for their own well-being. Some individuals are addicted to misery and suffering because it's comfortable and familiar, they love to complain about it. It's not unique to incels but it's very common among incels. The incel conceptual cave feels very warm and comfy for them, it's a place where nothing is their fault or responsibility and everything is someone else's fault, women, other men, society, fate.

I wish there were programs to assist them, though I believe many of these individuals wouldn't appreciate it. No one can help those who don't want to help themselves, ultimately. Society can do things to encourage change, but it's up to them to be receptive to it.

Pity can be extended to anybody, even those who self-cause their problems. 

I'd argue then what do incels want? they want a world that's unrealistic and infeasible. If they don't appreciate help, then that's their own failing, since hthey're not seen their situation objectively. 

[bebotalk]

On 30/12/2023 at 3:11 AM, Hojo said:

They just want to feel love and are wandering down a dark lonely hole looking for it. I'm not sure if I should pity anyone tho. I also think sex is a need just in the sense that it is necessary for life, also it is literally the one strive of mankind its the only reason anyone is doing anything. Men live to orgasm and feel God its the only reason the Eiffel tower and rocket ships exist. Our society is like one massive mating ritual. God is Sex. The first thing that happened was the biggest orgy session possible.

I don't believe anybody truly needs sex. Some may have more of a physiological attachment to it, but that's not universal. 

There are some who would enjoy being hermits in forest. For others, that's Hell on Earth. But all of these people need food and water. Sex is a lesser order human need at best. It's more of an innate desire than a true need. As for innovation and inventions, lots of noted scientists have been celibate. People create things for a variety of reasons, not just to get pussy. 

[bebotalk]

On 28/12/2023 at 0:58 AM, something_else said:

In theory if you put a person in an entirely isolated box for the rest of their life with access to food and water, but without any social interaction at all, they will survive.

But the stress of that situation will cause your body to have all sorts of ailments you wouldn’t otherwise have, and you may die 20 years earlier than you should. Stress is a deadly killer.

Not being loved will create enormous stress in your life and cause you all sorts of indirect problems. 

Bar food and water, few things are true absolute human needs.

One hears all of these stories of monks or priests that live in the desert or woods for decades with little to no ill-effects. So whilst people have a need for companionship, it's not as elementary as food or water. Maslow spoke of a hierarchy of needs, and he was right. Sex isn't high on the hierarchy, imho. 

[Hojo]

@bebotalk without sex there is no one to drink water.

[bebotalk]

On 05/01/2024 at 6:15 PM, Hojo said:

@bebotalk without sex there is no one to drink water.

Not all sex is about pleasure. Many schools of thought, especially religious, teach sex for pleasure is wrong. Either way, sex is a lesser-order need at best. I don't see how that's not the case. Needs are hierarchal in terms of vitality for life. 

[Yimpa]

Just now, bebotalk said:

Many schools of thought, especially religious, teach sex for pleasure is wrong.

I would expand on that with: sex that’s not grounded in an authentic love for yourself is unpleasurable.