New War In Israel / Gaza

[Danioover9000]

   This whole situation is so ridiculous it's a joke at this point:

 

[Vrubel]

Deceitful mushmind propaganda. If you were to watch the full NYT interview with that woman you'll see she is very intelligent and reflective. They just took one excerpt in total bad faith, hyperbolized it, mushed it into their narrative, and ran with it like Forest Gump. 

 

[Karmadhi]

7 hours ago, Vrubel said:

With the 7/10 attack life got desanctified. Now collective survival and considerations take precedence over individual ones. As unfortunate as civilian casualties are they are unavoidable with such an enemy within such an environment. I also ask the question that if you have cheered on 7/10, that is surely a form of complicity as well. A form of self-dehumanization. For those who are truly innocent, I feel sorry and hope they'll get a beautiful and peaceful Gaza after the war. Btw Gaza was genuinely a beautiful city. Relative to the region, Egypt and for example Pakistan and even Latin America it was normal. If only they had decent government.

You are acting as if Israel is at threat of being wiped out or something. 

They lost like 800 civilians, many countries lost far more and did not act like this.

Bosnia lost like 30.000, Kosovo 10.000, Ukraine around 10.000.

I feel like Israel values their lives so much more compared to other countries than to them even a starch seems like the end of the world. I can understand it but it is not realistic and just fuels fear and dumb propaganda.

Ironically they are thirsty for genocide after loosing 800 people yet criticize Palestine when they are thirsty for genocide after loosing tens of thousands through the years. Hypocrisy of its finest.

Israel experienced like 1/10 of what Palestine has and already they have the same genocidal intent that they have.

And they are supposed to be the "civilized ones".

If Israel was truly a civilized advanced society they would have done precise strikes like they did on the Hamas leader on Lebanon, resulting in fewer than 1000 Palestinian civilian deaths.

Then they would focus on mostly defense, making sure they will not be ever invaded again. The iron dome would take care of the rockets from Hamas. 

Also, the government would say that this is a provocation for us to overact and we will show we are better than those savages and we will not lower ourselves to their level.

If you want a developed response to the October 7/10 attacks.

If Israel did this I can assure you it would have gotten worldwide praise and support.

Now it has worldwide hate and is probably the most hated country in the world at the moment.

Many young people from Europe cannot stand it, I know because I have countless international friends and there is widespread disgust for what Israel is doing. I have never seen this sort of disgust in my life towards a country. Even Russia invasion of Ukraine pales in comparison.

Great job.

Edited February 18 by Karmadhi

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

You are acting as if Israel is at threat of being wiped out or something. 

I am just aware of the fire under Israel's feet, it is most definitely existential. 
 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

They lost like 800 civilians, many countries lost far more and did not act like this.

Bosnia lost like 30.000, Kosovo 10.000, Ukraine around 10.000.

1400 killed, kidnapped and tortured is obviously horrific enough to have the stark need to eliminate Hamas. 
 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Israel experienced like 1/10 of what Palestine has and already they have the same genocidal intent that they have.

Israel now needs to eliminate Hamas. The Palestinians will continue to live in Gaza and they'll get the opportunity to pursue their political agenda in a non-violent, non-genocidal manner. 
 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Also, the government would say that this is a provocation for us to overact and we will show we are better than those savages and we will not lower ourselves to their level.

If you want a developed response to the October 7/10 attacks.

If Israel did this I can assure you it would have gotten worldwide praise and support.

Irrelevant, Israel has to repopulate the attacked kibbutz villages, Those people cannot come back if Hamas is still in power. This is just one example, more generally speaking: Israel can't exist next to Hamas. At the end of the day what gives Israel its right to exist is its strength and ability to defend its citizens. 

I have seen how manipulative and determined anti-Israel propaganda is. They will hate Israel whether it's white or black, doesn't matter, they will always find something. 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Now it has worldwide hate and is probably the most hated country in the world at the moment.

Many young people from Europe cannot stand it, I know because I have countless international friends and there is widespread disgust for what Israel is doing. I have never seen this sort of disgust in my life towards a country. Even Russia invasion of Ukraine pales in comparison.

Great job.

 

Jew hatred is nothing new and Israel's security takes precedence over anti-semitism abroad because Israel is the homeland of Jews. If Jews don't feel safe abroad they can move to Israel or another country with less or no anti-semitism. 
And yes Israel stands for the survival of the Jewish people so being hateful of Israel and having a demonized view of Israelis is anti-semitic.

Excuse my hyperbolism but the whole "river to the sea" movement is basically the 21st-century version of the Nazi brown shirts. Maybe even more mindless because they didn't have the pretense of standing up for "human rights" let alone the delusion that they have some moral high ground. If you stand for human rights you also stand for the rights of the Uighurs, Rohingya and Assyrians but you don't give a fuck about them because there are no Jews involved. Having said that: Legitimate criticism and for example being against settlements is totally fine and understandable. It's all about from what place you're coming from. 

Edited February 19 by Vrubel

[Karmadhi]

10 hours ago, Vrubel said:

I am just aware of the fire under Israel's feet, it is most definitely existential. 

Can you explain to me how realistically Hamas could have wiped out Israel?

10 hours ago, Vrubel said:

1400 killed, kidnapped and tortured is obviously horrific enough to have the stark need to eliminate Hamas. 

Bullshit numbers. It is confirmed by Israel 1200 dead and 800 civilians among them. 800 civilians is a big number but nothing compared to other conflicts. I gave you some examples you ignored. And torture, killing etc happens in every war. It is not special to this one. Countless examples of Israeli torturing Palestinians in Gaza right now. Seen countless pictures. And they pridefully boast on it. 80 year old women with marks on their body from abuse. Terrible stuff.

10 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Israel now needs to eliminate Hamas. The Palestinians will continue to live in Gaza and they'll get the opportunity to pursue their political agenda in a non-violent, non-genocidal manner. 

Good luck with Israel wanting to raze it to the ground and wipe them all out. You seem to ignore the genocide talks in Israeli own government. There will be no more Gaza left at this rate. Return to where? They want to kick them all out and starve them. Open the news before writting such wishful thinking.

10 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Irrelevant, Israel has to repopulate the attacked kibbutz villages, Those people cannot come back if Hamas is still in power. This is just one example, more generally speaking: Israel can't exist next to Hamas. At the end of the day what gives Israel its right to exist is its strength and ability to defend its citizens. 

It can defend its citizens without destroying Gaza and Hamas in this manner. Perhaps creating a buffer zone and temporarily relocating the attacked areas. It has the resources to do this. It can take out key Hamas posts, not carpet bomb Gaza to ruins.

10 hours ago, Vrubel said:

I have seen how manipulative and determined anti-Israel propaganda is. They will hate Israel whether it's white or black, doesn't matter, they will always find something. 

Actually Leo said similar stuff and I doubt he is white and black person.

10 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Jew hatred is nothing new and Israel's security takes precedence over anti-semitism abroad because Israel is the homeland of Jews. If Jews don't feel safe abroad they can move to Israel or another country with less or no anti-semitism. 
And yes Israel stands for the survival of the Jewish people so being hateful of Israel and having a demonized view of Israelis is anti-semitic.

Most people got nothing against Jews. They got issues with Zionism and Israeli fascist government. Personally I dont care about Jew or not. Israel is to blame here, not Jews at large. It is a shame Jews are being attacked outside Israel.

10 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Excuse my hyperbolism but the whole "river to the sea" movement is basically the 21st-century version of the Nazi brown shirts.

I mean Israel says the same thing so it is not better here. Their PM said the same thing basically. Do not ignore that.

Netanyahu: 'From the River to the Sea,' Israel Must Have Control (rollingstone.com)

10 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Maybe even more mindless because they didn't have the pretense of standing up for "human rights" let alone the delusion that they have some moral high ground.

A fascist government is not a "human rights" advocate either. 

10 hours ago, Vrubel said:

f you stand for human rights you also stand for the rights of the Uighurs, Rohingya and Assyrians but you don't give a fuck about them because there are no Jews involved. Having said that: Legitimate criticism and for example being against settlements is totally fine and understandable. It's all about from what place you're coming from. 

To be fair the criticizm comes because the West is complicit with it and they preach human rights. I think if the West did the right thing and disowned Israel and left them to fend alone unless they changed their ways, I am sure people would be less critical.

You think if the West would support China with Uighurs people wouldnt be angry? But what can the West do to China? Or Russia? It cannot do anything. It is what it is.

Meanwhile it can do so much to Israel.

I would personally support the West turning Israel into another Russia in terms of treatment and relations.

Lastly what you fail to realize is that within liberals , they are not anti sematic by design. They love everyone. However, they hate oppression and bullying. And Israel is viewed as the bully, as the oppressor. They are seen as the bad guy. That has nothing to do with being Jewish. It is simply by the way they act. Genocide will give you that reputation. This is made worse by the fact that it is European Jews doing it. But not because they are Jewish but because they are white Europeans. Basically it is seen as colonialism which has a bad reputation these days, especially with green people. it is seen like a return to the past which we seem to demonize and view with disgust. White people massacring indigenous people in a land that is not theirs. How come nobody hated on Arab Jews before the European Jews came? They were seen as indigenous people to the area. So this is also linked to that. 

What it boils down fundamentally, is that people do not want a white guy from Poland (Israeli PM) to tell brown Arabs where to go. A European should not rule over non Europeans in land outside Europe. That is how people see this deep down. It may not seem as politically correct for me to say it like this but from reading hundreds of comments on this issue among common people, this is the main thing I noticed. That is why they are much more tolerant when Arabs kill each other in other wars. They are seen as 1 unit killing each other within the unit. White European Jews are seen as a third party, a colonizer and therefore when they kill people it is seen as 100x worse. Putting White Europeans in Arab land is by far the biggest mistake they could have done considering people are quite sensitive about colonialism. Whether they are Jew or not is irrelevant. Arabs historically have been far more friendly and tolerant of Jews compared to Europeans. So calling them Jew haters historically is false. 

Edited February 19 by Karmadhi

[MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI]

4 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Can you explain to me how realistically Hamas could have wiped out Israel?

Bullshit numbers. It is confirmed by Israel 1200 dead and 800 civilians among them. 800 civilians is a big number but nothing compared to other conflicts. I gave you some examples you ignored. And torture, killing etc happens in every war. It is not special to this one. 

Good luck with Israel wanting to raze it to the ground and wipe them all out. You seem to ignore the genocide talks in Israeli own government. There will be no more Gaza left at this rate. Return to where? They want to kick them all out and starve them. Open the news before writting such wishful thinking.

It can defend its citizens without destroying Gaza and Hamas in this manner. Perhaps creating a buffer zone and temporarily relocating the attacked areas. It has the resources to do this. It can take out key Hamas posts, not carpet bomb Gaza to ruins.

Actually Leo said similar stuff and I doubt he is white and black person.

Most people got nothing against Jews. They got issues with Zionism and Israeli fascist government. Personally I care about Jew or not. Israel is to blame here, not Jews at large. It is a shame Jews are being attacked outside Israel.

I mean Israel says the same thing so it is not better here. Their PM said the same thing basically. Do not ignore that.

A fascist government is not a "human rights" advocate either. 

To be fair the criticizm comes because the West is complicit with it and they preach human rights. I think if the West did the right thing and disowned Israel and left them to fend alone unless they changed their ways, I am sure people would be less critical.

You think if the West would support China with Uighurs people wouldnt be angry? But what can the West do to China? Or Russia? It cannot do anything. It is what it is.

Meanwhile it can do so much to Israel.

I would personally support the West turning Israel into another Russia in terms of treatment and relations.

Let them fend for themselves.

Dude, you aren't military and you haven't even stepped foot In Israel.  

If you have an infestation how do you remove the bugs? 

[Karmadhi]

2 minutes ago, MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI said:

Dude, you aren't military and you haven't even stepped foot In Israel.  

If you have an infestation how do you remove the bugs? 

With a surgical procedure, not by cutting down your whole arm (body bugs) or burning down your house (bed bugs).

[Twentyfirst]

Don't automatically assume a group of people is an infestation. Especially when you are on their land

[Sucuk Ekmek]

If you are a good gardener, you would warn others about  pharmaceutical complex, so you won't have artificial problems which people profit from, but things like that can't happen in democracy.

[Karmadhi]

@Sucuk Ekmek

6 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

Especially when you are on their land

What is hilarious about Israelis is that they accuse Muslims and Palestinians for being religious fanatics, yet their most common "proof" that the land is Jewish is some religious nonsense from the fictional Judaism books. Imagine someone saying "I will take your house because Quran says it is ours" yet claiming to be a secular advanced society. 

I have seen countless Israeli top politicans including Bennet use the holy books as their "proof" that the land is theirs during interviews.

So we are not talking about Jewish religious minorities here but top tier politicians.

Basically the equivalent of  Biden saying it.

An advanced society uses DNA testing not religious nonsense to prove this stuff. However in Israel DNA testing is illegal, not surprising considering most of their government is imported people from outside Israel like Morocco, USA, Poland etc.

Just to disclaim, I am not against European Jews or Jews from anywhere go to live in X place. There are plenty of Arabs in Europe for example. However, they come because Europe takes them and they fall under European jurisdiction and do not kick out Europeans and claim any land there. They live as immigrants and later become citizens. 

 

Edited February 19 by Karmadhi

[Vrubel]

@Karmadhi You seem hellbound on a narrow narrative. This makes it impossible for you to be truthful and within integrity to any redeemable values you might hold. It's obvious to anyone who doesn't share your extreme bias that you're beyond reason and mentally cornered.

 

 

[Karmadhi]

4 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

You seem hellbound on a narrow narrative. This makes it impossible for you to be truthful and within integrity to any redeemable values you might hold. It's obvious to anyone who doesn't share your extreme bias that you're beyond reason and mentally cornered.

I would say at least half the  people in the world, especially young generation seem to share this narrative so if that is the case then you are stuck with it.

Go ask people about the conflict or read comments on social media.

Half call Hamas resistance movement and not terrorists.

What would you call people that think like that?

At least nobody here does that.

So if we seem biased to you, know there is much much worse out there.

To be honest, many here and around the world  can also call you extreme pro Israel biased, Leo also did the same. So it goes both ways. Do not assume you are above this in this conflict.

I see your posts on other conflicts like the Ukranian war to be far more grounded and objective.

Is this conflict personal for you?

Edited February 19 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

5 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Half call Hamas resistance movement and not terrorists.

Half also think you need to blindly take pills doctor tell you and have zero respect to their body. So?

Edited February 19 by Nivsch

[lina]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpdBogj3w1U 

The Crisis in Gaza: Navigating Difficult Conversations with Dr. Gabor Maté & Daniel Maté

High-quality conversation worth listening to. 

[Karmadhi]

31 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Half also think you need to take pills doctor tell you blindly and have zero respect to their body. So?

So what we say here represents worldwide sentiment. Nobody here is from Palestine yet we all support it. How come?

If you think the pro Palestinians here are anti Semetic and support Palestine because they dislike Jews then you are very wrong.

If I was you I would start asking myself about the attitude of the world at this moment towards this issue.

If you want to discount Arabs then sure. Ask yourself why white Western Europeans support Palestine so much?

Gaza doctors: ‘We leave patients to scream for hours and hours’ - BBC News

This shit breaks my heart I swear. Especially when you know at least half are young kids. 

Edited February 19 by Karmadhi

[Vrubel]

36 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Half call Hamas resistance movement and not terrorists.

What would you call people that think like that?

Being sympathetic-to and justifying Hamas is called Genocidal anti-Semitism. You're not that but that's an extremely low bar. 

Widespread anti-Semitism is nothing new just in general. 

 

38 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

To be honest, many here and around the world  can also call you extreme pro Israel biased, Leo also did the same. So it goes both ways. Do not assume you are above this in this conflict.

I am definitely biased but I also integrate legitimate Palestinian positions and grievances. Ultimately peace is the solution. I am not attached to the two-state solution but I don't see anything better knowing both peoples. However now is not the time because first Hamas should be removed. 
 

42 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

I see your posts on other conflicts like the Ukranian war to be far more grounded and objective.

Is this conflict personal for you?

I am attached to the naked survival of (the) Jewish people, this can only be done through Israel. Also, I have a healthy understanding of how survival works in the Middle East. 

[Karmadhi]

2 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Being sympathetic-to and justifying Hamas is called Genocidal anti-Semitism. You're not that but that's an extremely low bar

Countless people that call Hamas resistance fighters are not like that. I know some of them. Personally I do not agree but I also call IDF a terrorist  organization so to me both are shit. I hold both on extremely low regard. Especially the IDF at the moment, during peace time they were much more humane.

4 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Widespread anti-Semitism is nothing new just in general. 

Again you fail to understand that green young liberals are not anti semetic but anti oppressors and anti colonialists. I explained to you very clearly that in their eyes Israel is a bully, oppressor and colonizer. You may disagree with it, I do not know personally to be honest but blaming it on Jewish religion is a cop out. Watch Leo videos on how stage green thinks if it is not clear to you.

5 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

I am not attached to the two-state solution but I don't see anything better knowing both peoples

Why not? Most of the world including USA, UK are in favor of it. I think the whole world except Israel is in favor of it. If you will go against the entire world you need to have a pretty good reason for it.

6 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

I am attached to the naked survival of (the) Jewish people, this can only be done through Israel.

We can agree here but it does not justify the way Israel has historically acted towards Arabs. Failing to recognize the oppression I think is the blind spot you have here. Would you say Israel does not oppress Palestinians?

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi As long as they live under hamas indoctrination this is already heartbreaking. Now at least this is going to change.

Edited February 19 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

48 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Again you fail to understand that green young liberals are not anti semetic but anti oppressors and anti colonialists. I explained to you very clearly that in their eyes Israel is a bully, oppressor and colonizer. You may disagree with it, I do not know personally to be honest but blaming it on Jewish religion is a cop out. Watch Leo videos on how stage green thinks if it is not clear to you.

I never said anything about Stage Green being anti-Semitic. I currently live in a largely stage green environment in Europe so I know the nuances, the good, the bad and the ugly. Extreme toxic stage green can definitely be anti-Semitic. Also, the whole free-Palestine hivemind is heavily blue and red with suckered-in green people. I just cannot stress enough how mindless and self-defeating the whole movement is, c'mon isn't that obvious!? 

Furthermore, I know stage-green people that are sympathetic to Israel because they are thoughtful complicated people that don't mush the world into a narrow narrative.

I would say that within Israeli society I am very stage green, general atmosphere of compassion and issues like gay rights and minority rights. But when dealing with outside enemies such as Hamas I am all stage blue underlined with Western democratic principles. 

48 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Why not? Most of the world including USA, UK are in favor of it. I think the whole world except Israel is in favor of it. If you will go against the entire world you need to have a pretty good reason for it.

I said I was for two states. It just seems to as the most realistic solution though it must be approached extremely carefully to not compromise on security. The Gaza pull-out was basically a two-state solution in miniature but it ended up backfiring for everyone involved.  

48 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Would you say Israel does not oppress Palestinians?

For sure, but it is complicated because the potential for barbarity from the Palestinians/Arabs is enormous so Israel has to take security measures against that. Also, the day-to-day live of Palestinians in peacetime time is objectively not that bad and in relative wealth and sovereignty. 

Edited February 19 by Vrubel

[Karmadhi]

23 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Extreme toxic stage green can definitely be anti-Semitic

I think toxic stage green is anti zionist not anti Jewish. They are against Zionism and Israel because to them Israel is a colonizer and oppressor. Hence they reject it and want it gone. But that has nothing to do with religion per say. They would not mistreat Jews for being Jews. You need to make the distinction between Zionism (political movement) and Judaism (the religion). You seem to treat them as 1 thing.

Zionism-Oppressor colonizer white supremacist thief of land: This is how extreme stage green sees it.

Judaism- Religion, nothing special about it. This is how extreme stage green sees it.

I know because I know many of these extreme greens and to them the whole issue of Israel is based on colonialism especially since they do not consider the white Jews that came from Europe indigenous to the area. Colonialism has a horrible notation on Green societies since some time ago, green countries tended to have colonies. Therefore they react heavily against ALL forms of colonialism and they view Zionism and Colonialism as one. 

Note: I am just saying what I noticed from them, these are not my personal views.

23 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

lso, the whole free-Palestine hivemind is heavily blue and red with suckered-in green people.

The Arabs in Europe protesting about it are definitely blue, I was talking about the green white liberals that seem to protest about it too. Owen Jones kind of people.

23 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Western democratic principles. 

Western democracies are all calling out Israel so I doubt Israel is acting according to those principles right now.

23 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

For sure, but it is complicated because the potential for barbarity from the Palestinians/Arabs is enormous so Israel has to take security measures against that

There are countless reports of harassment and oppression. I seen interviews of ex IDF people say they raided West Bank families in middle of the night when they knew they were innocent just to keep them in check.

Legit security concerns are fine but often I feel like they abuse it to just harass people and beat them into submission. 

Edited February 19 by Karmadhi