New War In Israel / Gaza

[Karmadhi]

@Vrubel I can tell you care far more for Israeli dead civilians and hostaged over Palestinian dead civilians and hostages though. Can I ask why? Are you anti Arab or anti Islam? Just curious

Also since you shame me about lacking nuance, i can also say the same about you when it comes to the Ukranian war. From what i saw in comments you tend to ignore the Russian survival agenda and just blindly support Ukraine while ignoring all the nuance in the conflict. Nuances Leo has often brought over.

Why are you more grounded and cold calculating in this war over the Ukrainain war? I mean that war is far more conventional and less civilian suffering so it is easier to analyze it with more objectively and less emotion.

I am just asking not accusing you of anything.

For some reason you seem bit more personally involved in that war while in Israel palestine war you keep a more grounded pragmatic pov, which I cannot keep unfortunately. 

Edited February 11 by Karmadhi

[Heaven]

I see many LGBTQ support Arab countries and don’t understand that they couldn’t live there for more than 2 days.

Yemen: 13 Sentenced to Public Execution for Homosexuality
https://www.mambaonline.com/2024/02/10/yemen-13-sentenced-to-public-execution-for-homosexuality/

Sometimes you need to ask yourself, which side of history would you want to be in?

 

[Nivsch]

13 hours ago, Heaven said:

I see many LGBTQ support Arab countries and don’t understand that they couldn’t live there for more than 2 days.

Yemen: 13 Sentenced to Public Execution for Homosexuality
https://www.mambaonline.com/2024/02/10/yemen-13-sentenced-to-public-execution-for-homosexuality/

Sometimes you need to ask yourself, which side of history would you want to be in?

 

Sure, when they don't really know Israel and don't really know Palestine and the differences between them, this what happens.

Edited February 12 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

22 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Nivsch

   Or it's difficult to sit on the fences when clearly in one situation one side is more wrong that the other?

No. It is just that one chooses to define one side as the "understood" (emphaty) and the second side as the "responsible".

This is a completely arbitrary decision stems from emotions and personal preferences. And after choosing that, he or she confuses this with "reality".

But in (real) reality both sides can be understood if you learn their psychology enough, and both of them are responsible.

Edited February 11 by Nivsch

[zurew]

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

No. It is just that one chooses to define one side as the "understood" (emphaty) and the second side as the "responsible".

Yes, the oppressor and oppressed framework mistaken for reality.

[Revolutionary Think]

Very powerful speech by the wise Mosab Hassan Yousef

 

[Nivsch]

@Heaven Tonight two hostages were rescued by IDF. Only now I read it. From Hell to home.

[lina]

 

[Yimpa]

@lina and plenty of screaming from both 

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Tonight two hostages were rescued by IDF. Only now I read it. From Hell to home.

At the cost of 70-100 civilians including young children's from what I saw. That many were killed in recent bombings in Rahaf.

Can you tell me if they care about their hostages so much why did their president reject Hamas offer to end the fighting at the expense of releasing all the hostages? 

Feels to me like their goal now is to cleanse Gaza and build settlements there with their new operation to Rahaf instead of "releasing hostages" only.

Hamas has been crippled at this point. It is childish to believe they have the power to carry out another powerful October 7th style attack in Israel. 

And their main leadership lives safely in other countries so no matter what you do in Gaza they will not be affected.

 

Edited February 12 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Of course hamas will fully recover in the course of 2-3 years if Israel won't finish him.

About the casualities, this is the harsh reality of the dynamic of war between two sides when one of them reject all the peace offeres gave to him and caused Israelis a 30 years long trauma.

You can say "but the settlements" and yes we also have our responsiblilty and Bibi is also an obstacle to peace.

Would it be enough even if we did everything right? Highly doubt it. Israel very existance causes a religious short circuit in the mind of fundamentalist Muslims that maybe really nothing would help.

I heard Chris Hedges lecture in the blog and it made zero impression on me and totally biased and emotional and naively blame gaming and profoundly failing to understand Israel's roots and essence.

Edited February 12 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

17 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

About the casualities, this is the harsh reality of the dynamic of war between two sides when one of them reject all the peace offeres gave to him and caused Israelis a 30 years long trauma.

Firstly Hamas did give you a peace offer and you get all the hostages back but Bibi refused it. So lets not pretend that Israel wants peace at the moment. 

Hamas gives ‘positive’ reply to proposal for hostage release deal - The Washington Post

Palestine definitely has caused pain and suffering to Israelis. 

However Israel has caused far far more pain and trauma to Palestinians.

I did not see Palestinians take land and kick out Israelis. The death toll, especially civilian is always 20x more on Palestinian side. Not to mention destruction.

So scale matters here.

Issue with you Pro Israelis is that you downplay Palestinian suffering while overhyping Israeli suffering.

Issue is that simple facts reject that reality.

Civilian death toll, land ownership via illegal settlements   and material destruction are literal things you can see with your own eyes.

Give me 1 reason why 1 day people in the West Bank should not gather and kick out and burn all the illegal settlements in there for example. Funny thing if they did that then they would be labeled terrorists in your eyes. And everyone outside Israel supporting it would be labeled anti Semetic and a Jew hater.

See how this works.

Fundamental issue here I noticed when I saw some old interviews with Nafati Bennet and other Israelis is that they claim all the land there is theirs and their "proof" is religious Jewish holy book.

Issue is that in 2024, we do not go with religious holy books in determining such important matters. Religious arguments are as valid as toilet paper. I can also claim Quran or Bible say this and that and lets change the world now again. 

Ironically the thing that would be the most "objective" would be DNA tests to determine someone's origin but DNA tests are not allowed in Israel. Why so?

Israel devilry is fueled by religious propaganda. I am sure most secular Israelis have a much more objective approach on this matter. Which is why they often oppose these religious ideologues that seem to often govern Israel and dictate its policies.

This is not me on hating on Israel for say. Iran does the same. Its just that we got no pro Iranian government people  here so I do not need to write lengthy essays on Iran's  goverenemnt devilry.

 

Edited February 12 by Karmadhi

[Vrubel]

17 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I can tell you care far more for Israeli dead civilians and hostaged over Palestinian dead civilians and hostages though. Can I ask why? Are you anti Arab or anti Islam? Just curious

I am not anti-Arab or anti-Islam. I had some tears in my eyes hearing the news of the rescued hostages, it was really uplifting to have that good news. At the same time, I also painfully realize many young Israeli soldiers died who had their whole life before them. So there is definitely a bias here but the hostages deserve special status. Regarding Palestinian causalities, I in a sense agree with Biden that it is over the top. But what else can Israel do, it must defeat Hamas completely and not leave some organized battalions in Rafah, which makes perfect sense from the military POV. Hamas started this war and royally screwed over their people. That's an undeniable fact.
 

17 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Also since you shame me about lacking nuance, i can also say the same about you when it comes to the Ukranian war. From what i saw in comments you tend to ignore the Russian survival agenda and just blindly support Ukraine while ignoring all the nuance in the conflict. Nuances Leo has often brought over.

Don't take it personally. Anti-Israel hive minds are incredibly unintellectual and self-defeating in nature. 

When it comes to understanding Russia. You must factor in the rash opportunism, overconfidence and Paranoia that went into his decision to invade. While technically you can "understand" his invasion that doesn't mean shit if it was based for a large degree on delusion and paranoia. Also, the ill-intent and blatant aggression even atrocities toward Ukrainians is not exactly an "understandable" thing. Yeah, you can also understand why Hitler invaded Poland and gaslight Britain for declaring or provoking WW2. That would be really perverse and a total dishonor. 

 

17 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

@Vrubel

Why are you more grounded and cold calculating in this war over the Ukrainain war? I mean that war is far more conventional and less civilian suffering so it is easier to analyze it with more objectively and less emotion.

I am just asking not accusing you of anything.

For some reason you seem bit more personally involved in that war while in Israel palestine war you keep a more grounded pragmatic pov, which I cannot keep unfortunately. 

Because there is a clear difference in the development and morality of Russians and Israelis. It is just that Israel is forced to fight a war in an environment that will inevitably produce a lot of civilian casualties. Israel has to clear out hospitals, schools and UN buildings because they are soaked in Hamas infrastructure and fighters. Russia bombs hospitals as a blatant attempt to simply bring pain to Ukrainians in the hope it will demoralize them. Israel constantly warns civilians to evacuate certain areas and by doing so gives up on certain military advantages like the element of surprise. 

 

17 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

For some reason you seem bit more personally involved in that war while in Israel palestine war you keep a more grounded pragmatic pov, which I cannot keep unfortunately. 

I am emotionally and intellectually involved in both wars, you're just emotionally involved. Which is fine but it closes you off to some good things and opens you up to a whole rabbit hole of bad and ugly things. 
   

Edited February 12 by Vrubel

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi from top to down:

I didn't see anywhere that hamas agreed to release them before the ground operation. It doesnt make sense, it would erase their efforts overnight. Please find me a link that proves that.

Israel didnt cause "far more" I disagree with that. Also the context is important if not the most important thing. The Allied also did a tremendous damage to Germany.

Nobody just kicked anyone out of the blue, in 1947 a totally civil war in its character has started and from then yes, its a whole Jungle. But Jews were almost only in deffence first until almost lost.

Also, displacement and building in your territory although problematic is still not even close to suicide bombing and being hostage in hamas tunnels.

2nd intifada started right after a decade long of signed agreements between Israelis and Palestinians supposed to give them a lot of hope. 

The Palestinians physical area in the West Bank is much larger than central Israel due also to greater surface area due to the mountainy landscape by the way an another parameter I though about recently.

Edited February 12 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

I am not anti-Arab or anti-Islam. I had some tears in my eyes hearing the news of the rescued hostages, it was really uplifting to have that good news.

Do you also have teary eyes when you see 12.000 dead? Curious

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

So there is definitely a bias here but the hostages deserve special status.

Where is the special status for 80 year old grandmothers detained in Israel as "terrorists"? There were cases of that. They are as innocent as those hostages.

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Hamas started this war and royally screwed over their people. That's an undeniable fact.

Israel started this war by their wrong policies and not giving Palestinians equal rights. Plenty of Israelis including famous intellectuals have given their concerns over Israel policies. Do you expect people to be oppressed indefinitely and not revolt? You are basically going against all International human rights organizations that have criticized Israel's policies  countless times. And I am talking about their policies before this recent war began.

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

While technically you can "understand" his invasion that doesn't mean shit if it was based for a large degree on delusion and paranoia.

I do agree it is paranoia but we speak like this because we see the West and NATO as good. That is the issue. We do not see them as a threat. Try to see NATO as a threat and the invasion would make more sense. It is not that I support what Russia did. I was against it since day 1. But I do not see it any less "ethical" than  USA invasion of Cuba, Libya or Iraq. So I cannot demonize Russia more than USA.

But I dislike Russia, do not think I am a pro Russian guy. Not at all. They do tons of devilry. Yet so does USA. 

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

But what else can Israel do, it must defeat Hamas completely and not leave some organized battalions in Rafah, which makes perfect sense from the military POV

There are endless endless cases of war crimes which can be avoided. Snipers shooting close to 30 civilians in recent days being one of them. Shooting doctors working in hospitals, civilians inside cars etc. You can defeat Hamas and not do these atrocities. They are clearly fueled by hate not military logic.

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Yeah, you can also understand why Hitler invaded Poland and gaslight Britain for declaring or provoking WW2. That would be really perverse and a total dishonor. 

Hitler wanted to raze Poland to the ground, make Warsaw nothing more than a small town with a train station and kill 80% of polish population. 

Generalplan Ost - Wikipedia

Russia does not want to do any of those things. It just wants Ukraine to be another Belarus. That is wrong but different from pure genocide like Germany did against Poland.

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Because there is a clear difference in the development and morality of Russians and Israelis.

The hatred Israelis have towards Palestinians in Gaza is far greater than Russian towards Russians in Ukraine. If you actually see the tactics used are quite similar. Unfortunately they seem to kill far far more in Gaza due to density and lack of air defense/shelters in Gaza. But the actual tactics are basically the same. I can name them if you want but it would be a long list. 

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Israel constantly warns civilians to evacuate certain areas and by doing so gives up on certain military advantages like the element of surprise. 

It also bombs areas considered "safe". What is your excuse for that? If Gaza is razed to the ground in the end what matters? You do realize that is done simply for people like you to say "See Israel is not that bad". You think they actually care about civilians there? You know they now block humanitarian aid when Gaza is starving? Biden even said it in live tv he had to convice BiBi to allow humanitarian aid.

And all considered, if Russia is so ruthless how come the death toll in Ukraine given the time frame and population is relatively low? I mean Serbia killed like 3x more civilians in Bosnia in the same time frame and Bosnia had 20x less people. Same in the Syrian war.  Chechen war was also far more brutal for civilians.

Honestly I would expect at least 100.000 civilian deaths in Ukraine at this point but it is around 11.000. Max 20.000.

While military deaths are close to 100.000 now. In Syria or Bosnia it was a 50 50 ratio between soldier and civilians. Here it is like 5 to 10 times more soldiers. 

 

Edited February 12 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

I didn't see anywhere that hamas agreed to release them before the ground operation. It doesnt make sense, it would erase their efforts overnight. Please find me a link that proves that.

I sent you one from New York times.

I send you another from CNN.

"The framework of the proposal was agreed to by negotiators in Paris at the end of last month. CNN previously reported that it would call for a first phase of civilian hostage releases to take place over a six-week pause, with three Palestinian prisoners held by Israel released for each civilian hostage returned from Gaza. That ratio would be expected to go up for Israel Defense Forces soldiers and a longer pause is possible beyond the six weeks for the later phases." Hamas has replied to Gaza hostage proposal | CNN Politics

Why did Israel not agree to this?

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Israel didnt cause "far more" I disagree with that.

Numbers and material damage says otherwise. Number of hostages Hamas has taken is far lower than the number of Palestinian kids in Israeli prisons through the decades. These are verifiable things you know. Also I do not see Palestine taking any territory from Israel in recent decades. Name me some Palestinian settlements at the expense of Israel land?

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

The Allied also did a tremendous damage to Germany.

Most of civilian deaths and war crimes committed against Germany were done by USSR after the Nazis killed close to 27 million Soviets and 17 million civilians. They showed tons of restraint which I still find respectable. A lot of the bombings that the Allies did were to support USSR since they did not want to open a second front until 1944. 

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Nobody just kicked anyone out of the blue, in 1947 a totally civil war in its character has started and from then yes, its a whole Jungle. But Jews were almost only in deffence first until almost lost.

Nakba - Wikipedia

The Nakba (Arabic: النكبة an-Nakbah, lit. 'The Catastrophe') is the violent displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, along with the destruction of their society, culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations.

Sounds like devilry to me.

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Also, displacement and building in your territory although problematic is still not even close to suicide bombing and being hostage in hamas tunnels

Go and try to steal someone's home and see how they respond to that. In the USA, Israel biggest ally you will get shotguned in the face and the person that did it will not be legally charged since you are transpassing in their property.

I would also argue a 12 year old kid spending the night in Israeli prisons outside in the cold is not much better than a Hamas tunnel. Lets not pretend Israel does not jail 20x more than Hamas kidnaps. I saw a report of a 84 year old woman detained in Israel jails. Is she also terrorist?

Suicide bombing is indeed horrible, I cannot argue with that.

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

2nd intifada started right after a decade long of signed agreements between Israelis and Palestinians supposed to give them a lot of hope.

I am not an expert on that topic but I read that the Israeli negotiator said something like "If I was in Palestine place I would not agree to it myself".

I will try to find the sources after.

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

The Palestinians physical area in the West Bank is much larger than central Israel due also to greater surface area due to the mountainy landscape by the way an another parameter I though about recently.

Yet Israel does not want a Palestinian state even though the world including the west is saying it is the only solution.

Personally I would say 1947 border would be the most fair split but I dont think it will happen. 1968 border it is then. BiBi does not accept that.

Also you did not tell me any response regarding religion fueling Israel expansion. As a secular Isareli would like to hear your view on that.

🇮🇱 Israeli minister: The Bible says West Bank is ours - UpFront (youtube.com)

This is the source of talk I despise the most from Israel. Using religious nonsense to justify devilry. Same people do not even allow DNA tests to check ancestry. Talk about "advanced society". 

 

Edited February 12 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Nobody destructed their society or culture. They could have became to like one of the Emirates. Israel has not searched any war at all and has invested on technology and on a smaller and smaller IDF (shorter and shorter service length for youngs) and was in a conception we won't need to enter Gaza. 

The naiveness of Israeli IDF commanders line of thinking has been broken in 7.10.

Edited February 12 by Nivsch

[zazen]

 

 

 

[lina]

13 minutes ago, zazen said:

 

 

 

@zazen @Karmadhi thousands around the world have been suffering from nonstop secondary trauma just from watching the in-ground media coming from Gaza mostly shared on X, Instagram or TitTok and witnessing new levels of barbarism on a daily basis , yet no matter how much you argue or debate it just feels like it's all in futile, I guess the dehumanization of the other is just deeply ingrained.  

Edited February 12 by lina

[Nivsch]

@lina Without knowing the details in the cherry picked linktree I can answer in general that of course dehumanization will happen after such a trauma and the celebrations in Gaza in oct 7th and after 30 years of agreements and negotiations followed by only more terror.

Start to see the whole dynamic rather than to blame almost only one side. Every western country would probably react the same when needed to eliminate a terror organization who mix itself together with civilians in Rafah but also everywhere in Gaza.

Edited February 12 by Nivsch