New War In Israel / Gaza

[Vrubel]

49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, but now we live in the 21st century, where such things are no longer acceptable. Because we're more morally developed. That's the cost of development: you can't act like a genocidal barbarian.

100 years ago you could kick a dog, no problem. Today it is considered a crime in the developed world.

You must grasp the uniqueness of Jewish history. The extreme non-militantly of the vast majority of Jews led to the Holocaust, slaughtered like lambs. Only Zionists were able to organize resistance like in the Warsaw Ghetto, In the swamps of Belarus and the Sobibor deatcamp uprising. Zionists ultimately led the Jews to a country of their own. 

personal note: Thats why I always will be a Zionist. I sincerely believe so that my ancestors came from Israel. Either way I feel highly connected with Jewish history. But when it comes down to it. The bottom line is that Jews need Israel for survival.

Edited January 21 by Vrubel

[Nivsch]

2 minutes ago, Nabd said:

You never acknowledged what first IDF leader said.

And you don't respond to anything I say.

I would not be surprised if you were paid by IDF to spread propaganda because you are not here to discuss, only to defend blindly.

Last time I was paid by IDF was in 2009 and only 100$ a month to buy food in my base. Maybe I missed out the IDF leader I will search for it.

Edited January 21 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

@Nivsch @Nabd  both of you are reasonable enough and intelligent in your own right, don’t get too confrontational, thats petty and above you.

Edited January 21 by Vrubel

[Lila9]

5 minutes ago, Nabd said:

It is well known and there Israeli documents clearly stating Israel need Hamas.

 

Created by Britain.

You dont appreciate how much Islamic fundamentalism helps Israeli right wing ans the west.

Its a fucking miracle that first resistance was secular! We are talking about the middle east for fucks sake!

So essentially the natives were more developed than European Jews.

Supporting Hamas to hurt PLO/Fatah was done strategically before Hamas became dangerous.

Hamas started as an "innocent" religious movement or at least, that how they presented themselves to Israel at the beginning. Nothing new.

But do Israel responsible to Islamic fundamentalism? Hell no.

 

[Nivsch]

22 minutes ago, Nabd said:

Does this justify Jews coming from all over the world to steal their land?

Did they steal something before the Arabs started a war (that was civil in its character) against them?

I didn't find an evidence for that.

The Jews lived nearby them but didn't stole a private land.

And as long as they have no state, they cannot have a "collective" land on their own.

[Lila9]

4 minutes ago, Nabd said:

Same could be said about Jews today.

What unites you is religion. You literally come from all the world and nothing is shared but religious tradition.

Palestinians are more united and similar than Israelis.

Also Palestine name was used, it was not unkown.

There is a genetic connection between Jews from different areas of the world, this has been tested.

Palestinians claim to be indigious to this land and being here thousands of years while their surnames imply about the history of their families coming from Egypt, Iraq, Yemen, Syria etc.

Arafat was born in Egypt but lied he was born in Israel's territory and that he is a Palestinian.

Muhammed Deif's real name is Mohammed al-Masri, even though he was born in Gaza, his surname implies that his family originally came from Egypt.

 

 

[Lila9]

3 minutes ago, Nabd said:

Here you can also see the name used is Palestine @Lila9

This land was called Palestine after being changed by the Romans from Judea, and?

There wasn't a Palestinian state at that time, only land named Palestine.

[Leo Gura]

24 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

You must grasp the uniqueness of Jewish history. The extreme non-militantly of the vast majority of Jews led to the Holocaust, slaughtered like lambs. Only Zionists were able to organize resistance like in the Warsaw Ghetto, In the swamps of Belarus and Sobibor deatcamp uprising. Zionist ultimately led the Jews to a country of their own.

Yes, of course, and an abused child grows up to abuse others.

The big picture here is simply that traumatized Jews are displacing their trauma onto Palestinians. That's really what's going on.

Quote

personal note: Thats why I always will be a Zionist. I sincerely believe so that my ancestors came from Israel. Either way I feel highly connected with Jewish history. But when it comes down to it. The bottom line is that Jews need Israel for survival.

Yes, and this is called dogma and self-bias. Which leads to conflict.

Edited January 21 by Leo Gura

[Vrubel]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

Yes, and this is called dogma and self-bias. Which leads to conflict.

I don’t think you understood me correctly. I am taking the least dogmatic and most starkly practical view. But yes I am also making a stand.

Edited January 21 by Vrubel

[Lila9]

10 minutes ago, Nabd said:

You still don't appreciate the devilry behind supporting religious fundamentalism.

Israel was ready to support Hamas just to not allow a Palestinian state.

They need Hamas to say "who are we gonna negotiate with?".

PLO are extremely reasonable. Why did Israel need to create Hamas?

Also, don't be surprised that Israel is responsible for helping fundamentalism.

We know this from Syrian documents too where Israel lobbied heavily to dismantle the free Syrian army but didn't seem to mind religious groups.

US is responsible for religious fundamentalism too, I am not blaming Israel completely for it.

The problem is why did Israel create Hamas? This is not a simple thing to ignore.

Israel didn't create it, maybe you wish Israel would have created it so you can blame Hamas on it, because you hate both.

You project the devilry if the radical Islamists on Israel.

[Nivsch]

@Nabd Netanyahu made hamas stronger and it is a shame of course, but hamas was created because of hamas.

You want also to blame Europe for creating Nazi germany or that the responsobility to take feeling of offense and unfairness to the extreme toxic version is found in the violent side itself?

And if you say they arent responsible then the other side is also not responsible by the same logic of the deterministic point of view which is problematic of course.

Edited January 21 by Nivsch

[zazen]

Israel was established during a time when nationalism was popular but colonialism wasn’t. It was a humanitarian cause done on the back of European atrocities to the Jews culminating in the Holocaust - it was colonial power with the entitled colonial mindset which aided its establishment.  British colonial interests married to a humanitarian interest. 

The right to self determination and national consciousness came into the world at that time, fine - but this doesn’t mean the right to self determination at the expense of dominating another group. The Palestinian locals were expected (without consultation) to give away a majority share of their land (56% in the partition plan) to a minority of recently arrived settlers who had been there at most 20 years and only made up a third of the population.

If Israel’s creation had occurred this way a few decades/centuries earlier it would have encountered less global resistance and condemnation as it does in modern times as back then might was right. Any nations that remain from colonisation today (US, Australia etc) developed over a much larger span of time - multiple decades to centuries and during a time where strength was respected and accepted once it had established itself over weakness.

Israel faces ongoing conflict and condemnation due to its perceived artificial creation and its ongoing occupation and subjugation of the inhabitants unlike states that organically evolve more naturally over time due to the geographic, political and cultural situation of the land and locals. Any remaining states that started as colonies do so by integrating the locals in a democracy. Israel wasn’t a grassroots movement so much as it was a top down implant by colonial power.
 

People from elsewhere revived a dormant language (Hebrew) used mostly in the context of religion for their newly formed nation, claimed it as their native tongue and tied it to their ancestral land. This creation was not in harmony with the region's natural circumstances and naturally caused disruption as it was thrust on already existing people for which it had little context or receptivity.  

Maybe the project of Israel can be seen as a unnatural foreign imposition done in such a rapid space of time - in a time when colonialism was dying and in a world which now rejects any remains of it including the remaining colonial mindset that entitles one to take another's land and subjugate any locals resistance to this, which then gaslights this resistance as terrorism and any criticism as racist. The region still feels the shockwaves of Israel's inception and the locals are still undergoing oppressive dispossession till today.

Edited January 21 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@Nabd Because Netanyahu didn't want to negotiate with the Palestinians out of personal fears to his position probably.

The far-right wing is of course a problem too. I agree.

And no. The responsibility to someone to not become so toxic is always within the someone!

Because if you say that hamas is just a chemical reaction of the consequences, then you must use the same logic to Israel policy and exemp it also from any responsibility because you now using a deterministic (anti free will) point of view - which is we can agree a problematic pov.

Edited January 21 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

31 minutes ago, Nabd said:

I dont hate Israel but Israel literally created Hamas. You can check the documents yourself and connect the dots.

Why didn't you reply to anything else i said?

Like why did Israel need to fund Hamas lets say if not totally create it?

You guys keep preaching how Palestinians dont want peace right? Well why fund a terrorist group that doesnt want peace? Israeli officials admitted they fund Hamas to not allow a Palestinian state.

Why not take this information into your world view and understanding of politics instead of crusading against poor powerless ignorants in Gaza?

As I commented earlier:

Supporting Hamas (by Israel) to hurt PLO/Fatah was done strategically before Hamas became dangerous (i.e. strated killing Israelies).

Hamas started as an "innocent" religious movement or at least, that's how they presented themselves to Israel at the beginning. Nothing new.

At that time when Hamas wasn't dangerous and PLO/Fatah was, it makes sense that Israel wanted to get rid of Fatah by supporting their competitors, Hamas, Which was a huge mistake because it turned out that Hamas was more brutal.

I read about this in a book that I talk about a lot here because it's is a very reliable source for understanding the conflict as it was written by Hamas' founder son who was close to the people who were behind the scenes of these historical events.

Supported or funded by Israel for stratigical purposes is not the same as created by Israel.

Hamas was created by- Muslim Palestinians.

 

Edited January 21 by Lila9

[Nivsch]

@Nabd sounds like conspiracy to me.

You say here far reaching claims I would ask you to attach links as evidence, because to me it doesn't make sense at all.

Netanyahu funded hamas yes.

The other things - I don't think so. Not as an official policy of Israel for sure.

Israel fights hamas every single day in the West Bank since 2002.

Edited January 21 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

Hamas is the military unit of what ought to be a Palestinian state.

Hamas was not created by Israel, but Israel pours gasoline on the fires of hurt and injustice, which emboldens Hamas.

[Vrubel]

@Nabd I would advise you to dig deeper into what makes someone “native” to the land.

you seem to have a narrow view of this (which is understandable I am not being judgmental). 

For me for example it was always clear as day that White Afrikaners were native to South Africa because they lived there for 400 years+. You can argue that the Bantu blacks were colonizers because they came in and displaced the “true native” Xhosa. More perhaps “bizarrely” if you would tell a white Rhodesian speaking with a perfect English accent that he is not native to the darkest of Africa, it will just not register in his mind. Why so?

because he is connected to the soil and land he builds and defends. A white Rhodesian will feel just as “native” as the black. 

I am not comparing Israel to European colonizers, because Israels claims and necessity for existence goes way deeper. But I want to make something clear about the mechanisms of being “native” and connected to the land.

Edited January 21 by Vrubel

[Nivsch]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Hamas is the military unit of what ought to be a Palestinian state.

Hamas was not created by Israel, but Israel pours gasoline on the fires of hurt and injustice, which emboldens Hamas.

I agree about this pattern. Less about the degree of injustice (but not negate it completely) because I think they have much more responsibility to their outcome than the "too easy life" they get from this thread.

Edited January 21 by Nivsch

[Lila9]

Just now, Nabd said:

Why do you find it hard to believe that there is a faction in Israel which works on getting rid of all Palestinians?

Post the documents here.

1 minute ago, Nabd said:

It doesn't matter because the claim is Israel wants peace but Palestinians dont. If true then why fund Hamas? A terrorist group that definitely doesn't want peace?

As I said, in the beginning, Hamas started as a charity whose aim was to bring Muslims closer to religion, this is how they started (Dawah).

At this time they committed 0 killings against Israelies, while Fatah (fueled by PLO) was already engaged in terrorism and killed Israelies. For Israel, PLO/Fatah was more dangerous than Hamas at that time. They wanted to get rid of Fatah by supporting Hamas, exploiting that fact that there was an ideological conflict between the two, unaware that Hamas will commit terror attacks in the future.

 

[Heaven]

Jewish country is justified after the holocaust.

The UN agreed they will live in Israel. So they didn’t just occupied the land.

Israel is the Jewish country for almost a 100 years. They are not going to move anywhere. The acceptance should be there to begin with after holocaust. Or maybe there should be a WW3 for Muslim countries to accept it.

Israel doesn’t oppress Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Qatar. Still those countries are doing anything they can to terrorize Israel. It was never about Palestinians and Israel it is much broader.

9/11 Didn’t happen because America is oppressing the Middle East but because of power games.

The history repeat itself. Just in a more complex way. Hamas = Nazis = Isis. 
To try to justify their actions is to believe a story that they are telling you. Guess what? They are lying to you.