New War In Israel / Gaza

[zazen]

4 hours ago, lina said:

@Nivsch you guys (anyone still supporting whatever that's going on) are up for a rude awakening, whether you realize it now or in 50 years, but Israel's image and reputation has been broken for years to come and no amount of justification will fix that.

Hopefully we're not here in 10 years discussing another uprising and ethnic cleansing 'self defense' campaign.

3 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

The existence of hamas implies there would be thousands more hostages, rapes and kidnappings as much as Israel is willing to tolerate long into the future. At one point, they decide enough is enough.

The existence of Israel (as it currently is) implies there would be thousands more incidents of discrimination, oppression, detained and uncharged minors and settler expansion. At one point, they decide enough is enough.

5 hours ago, kenway said:

A normal country doesn't rescue 130 hostages by invoking Hiroshima on to a population of 2.1 million, half of whom are children.

If you don't understand that, then I don't know what to tell you.

Nice shares as usual. It's odd that to care about the safety of your hostages you decide to anger the ones holding them even more and in fact put them in harms way by your 'methods of rescue' ie unleash bombzilla on the small piece of land they're contained within. Usually hostage situations involve special ops or negotiations, not all out assault.

4 minutes ago, kenway said:

Yeah I made the mistake in forgetting that there's an answer for everything when it comes to Israeli-apologism.

It's a kind of convenient myopia that refuses to face the subtle moral nuance of the exercise - namely the racist and quasi-devilish disregard for a Palestinian life, compared to an Israeli life.

Distortion, denial and deflection. Metaphorically its like a man (Israel) slapping another man (Gaza) then saying he did't slap him but his hand did - and then he starts to complain and play victim for his hand hurting.

[zazen]

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Obviously when there are 130 hostages there the speed of the war will be maximized.

This is just one of the reasons apart from a few others why this conflict has so many people involved in it - because its not only the scale of destruction but the time scale its done within and the calculations going on in peoples minds that at this rate if it continues how many more deaths will there be.  

The reason for the speed of operations is also because Israels army is made up of civilian-reservists who are usually in the economy working and providing much needed money required for extended wars and operations. On top of that, you have 10's of thousands of locals from north and south who aren't living by the border anymore and are being housed at the states / tax payers expense - this is unsustainable economically.

8 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Hundreds of thousands been killed in Yemen but nobody cares not in the western world nor here.

 

8 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Bashar Al Assad killed more muslims then the sum of the people been killed in all of the conflicts between Israel and Muslims since 1947 but not the world nor here there is a caring

People did care, they protested a lot in London. It’s just not to this scale for multiple reasons. First, the Palestine issue has been ongoing for a long time which builds up momentum for the cause - it remains in peoples consciousness especially when every few years theirs operations and civilians dying. It’s a holy land sacred to a lot of people in the world. The people there are captive and don't have any safe place to flee to or seek refuge unlike other wars. Also, the implications of this conflict and how it can easily develop into a regional war which has global impact due to its geostrategic location (near a lot of the worlds most important resources and transport lanes) + the players involved (Israel - a US ally, and proxy Iran groups) which can spiral also into world war 3.

This thread is about Israel / Gaza so people will clearly discuss about that here. If a country is causing destruction and humanitarian crises to another people it's not a good look for that country to use deflection and play whataboutism. If a robber robs someone and a bystander starts lecturing the robber on the injustice of his act and that he should stop, then robber says 'oh but the high tax rate robs people of their hard earned money anyway so what?' people would laugh.

Edited January 17 by zazen

[Raze]

 

[Nivsch]

[kenway]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

If a robber robs someone and a bystander starts lecturing the robber on the injustice of his act and that he should stop, then robber says 'oh but the high tax rate robs people of their hard earned money anyway so what?' people would laugh.

Great analogy.

[kenway]

@Nivsch

And how many countries would support SA's claim if journalists were actually allowed to report on what was going on in Gaza and the media (particularly the Western media) were actually doing their jobs in providing their citizens a truthful synopsis of the facts?

Edward Snowden used the correct term - appalling - in describing the cowardly trick of such media to not broadcast to their citizens the 3-hour SA application, but instead only choosing to live-stream Israel's convoluted defense.

[kenway]

 

.... and on that subject.... Gideon Levy speaking on Democracy Now about the nature of Israeli media.

This is what people mean when they use the term "brainwashed" when talking about ordinary Israelis.

 

Courtesy to @Raze for the link.

Edited January 17 by kenway

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Tel Aviv would have the military and take responsibility to take out the terrorists themselves without any outside intervention.

Israel army could not operate like that in Gaza. The local population will not cooperate. 

👍 Another good interesting point I didn't think about.

[Raze]

46 minutes ago, Nabd said:

This is the best explanation I've seen of how Hamas is an essential part of Israeli right wing.

This is what I am always trying to tell people. This guy does a fantastic job with visuals and presentation backed by documents which makes denying this extremely hard.

I encourage all Israelis and Hamas sympathizers to watch this. 

I myself brought this up but I think people are misunderstanding it. I wouldn’t say Netanyahu wanted his to happen or views Hamas as an asset. Just that the government in Israel is doing everything it can to hurt advocacy for a state even if it means putting Jews at risk. The blockade and violence directed at Palestinians has resulted in many attacks but they were usually small casualty wise for Israel, they just slipped up on October 7th. The plan seemed to be to slowly choke the Palestinians and pummel them when they lashed out with the idea they could never do much damage, and then use what damage they do cause to further justify restricting them. 

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@lina If a baby from your village was burned alive and some of your friends or family would taken hostages with a gun to their head every day for 100 days you would do exactly the same as Israel and chasing those murderers with the maximum pressure possible until you bring them back.

If someone murdered a child on the street and fled the police by running and hiding into a 20 floor high-rise building where your mother happened to live, would you be cool if we dropped a 2000lb bomb on that building, leveling it to the ground?

This example shows the insane bias of the Israeli position. You would never accept such a situation.

This is the topic of Double Standards that I have an excellent video on. Study it closely and apply to your political positions. If you dare.

Edited January 17 by Leo Gura

[Yimpa]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is the topic of Double Standards that I have an excellent video on. Study it closely and apply to your political positions. If you dare.

Was just listening to this episode in the car two nights ago. The insight that struck me was: “Wait, isn’t this a triple standard? Leo is criticizing all these people and groups for not meeting his standards. Oh shit, now it’s a quad standard now that I’m criticizing Leo’s criticism of double standards.” 

[Nivsch]

@Leo Gura I have listened to this video.

You are also right this is indeed a counter story to the one I wrote and I think both of them are right.

Then what do you suggest IDF to do?

IDF can go with this and decide it won't bomb anything, but then the soldiers will be killed like sitting ducks or domino cubes in many hundreds every month.

I have also a question. If that mother would asked to leave the building 3 days before it was bombed it was ok? Because honestly this is what happened all the time during this war.

And another question why the Israeli side is "insanly biased" but the side who critisize her so harshly is not? I bet every western society would react just the same because it really seems to me inevitable in such a trappy situation.

Edited January 17 by Nivsch

[Yimpa]

20 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Then what are you suggest IDF to do?

You can start by being definitively in touch with IDGAF how things should and shouldn’t be. Consciousness has, and will always be, designing all of this perfectly.

Edited January 17 by Yimpa

[How to be wise]

@Nivsch If a man came into your house, killed all your children, and then took your wife as a hostage, would you kill him even if it means that you will also kill your wife? 

[Leo Gura]

36 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Leo Gura 

Then what do you suggest IDF to do?

Build better defenses around Gaza and do more surgical intelligence operations.

36 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I have also a question. If that mother would asked to leave the building 3 days before it was bombed it was ok? Because honestly this is what happened all the time during this war.

But if you ask the mother to leave, the murderer will also leave. So what is the point of bombing the building?

Also, don't forget, that building is someone's property and home. Are you okay if I bomb your mother's house when she is out shopping?

People invest their entire lives into building their homes. To just destroy it is a serious crime. Especially in areas where people are poor.

36 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

And another question why the Israeli side is "insanly biased" but the side who critisize her so harshly is not? I bet every western society would react just the same because it really seems to me inevitable in such a trappy situation.

Many intelligent people also criticized the US invasion of Iraq and drone strikes, because it is an obvious misuse of force and leads to counter-productive results.

The military has to be used with a lot of restraint, otherwise it causes more harm than good.

[Hardkill]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Build better defenses around Gaza and do more surgical intelligence operations.

But if you ask the mother to leave, the murderer will also leave. So what is the point of bombing the building?

Also, don't forget, that building is someone's property and home. Are you okay if I bomb your mother's house when she is out shopping?

People invest their entire lives into building their homes. To just destroy it is a serious crime. Especially in areas where people are poor.

Many intelligent people also criticized the US invasion of Iraq and drone strikes, because it is an obvious misuse of force and leads to counter-productive results.

The military has to be used with a lot of restraint, otherwise it causes more harm than good.

I get that a ceasefire is realistically not gonna happen anytime soon, but Arab Americans and young voters in very key battleground states that Biden last time won, only by razor thin margins in 2020, are threatening to not vote for Biden and the Democrats again in the 2024 general election, if he and many other Dems in Washington don't call for a ceasefire. So, would it still be better politically for a lot more Democrats, including Biden himself, to call for a ceasefire? 

Edited January 17 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

@Hardkill Biden should do what he feels is right, not what will please disgruntled voters.

Edited January 17 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

@Hardkill Biden should do what he feels is right, not what will please disgruntled voters.

Why exactly? Presidents are elected to serve the will of the people, not do whatever they want.

[Hardkill]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Hardkill Biden should do what he feels is right, not what will please voters.

Even if it costs him his re-election? Even at the possible lost of our country's democracy being lost because Biden lost too much of the support he needed to beat Trump again in 2024?

Or will those voters probably come home by the election day, regardless of what his decision is with handling Israel?

Or will those disgruntled voters not really have a real significant effect on the electoral outcome?

Edited January 17 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Raze said:

Why exactly? Presidents are elected to serve the will of the people, not do whatever they want.

Presidents are elected to excercise their superior judgment, not to do whatever some vocal minority wants.