New War In Israel / Gaza

[zazen]

1 hour ago, lina said:

Doing mental gymnastics to divert the attention away from the core problem which is as he said :  "...ethno-nationalist settler colonial ideology, in continuation of decades of their systematic persecution and purging.."  will not help anyone. 

100%

54 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

To the quiet readers Israel supporter here - Don't lose heart.

The lesser (or greater?) Jihad who shows us its true face with swastikas in every protest, is always the loudest (as we know from london) and it easy to fall into the trap this it is the majority. It is not.

According to Globes news:

France - 65% of the citizens agree about the need to eliminate hamas.

England - 50% blames hamas in the war.

Germany - Support rate in Israel rises consistently.

Bro come on, I was at the London protest and there were no Swastikas - in fact there were plenty of Jews there. There was one guy waving a ISIS flag who discredits the whole cause though and who was rightly taken away by police and investigated. 

Agreeing to eliminate Hamas is different to agreeing to eliminate them in a way that causes mass civilian death or displacing over a million people.

Your talking as if the people here who support Palestinians (or protestors) are calling for the destruction of Israel, when really its about calling for the existence for an Israel that treats and recognises the existence of Palestinians as equals and stops the blockade, siege and occupation.

39 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

"What about all the civilians there"? "Fuck them, they support Hamas so they deserve to die along with them".

That's the thing, Hamas came into power in 2006, with no election since then. The children at the time never voted, and the babies born the year of 2006 who are now 18 never voted for them either - 50% of Gaza are under the age of 18 - yet they suffer because of falsely conflating that they voted Hamas in. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

6 minutes ago, DawnC said:

I genuinely wonder what all of you would have done if 7/10 event happened in your country from a neighboring state with Hamas type regime still holding 240 hostages. I still haven't heard any realistic course of action, besides a somewhat obsessive approach towards calling out immoral deeds done by Israel. 

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[Karmadhi]

9 minutes ago, DawnC said:

I genuinely wonder what all of you would have done if 7/10 event happened in your country from a neighboring state with Hamas type regime still holding 240 hostages. I still haven't heard any realistic course of action, besides a somewhat obsessive approach towards calling out immoral deeds done by Israel

I would create a clear policy. 1 Hamas fighter death is not worth 1 Palestinian kid death. That rule would not be broken. 

Simple.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Karmadhi

[PurpleTree]

9 minutes ago, DawnC said:

I genuinely wonder what all of you would have done if 7/10 event happened in your country from a neighboring state with Hamas type regime still holding 240 hostages. I still haven't heard any realistic course of action, besides a somewhat obsessive approach towards calling out immoral deeds done by Israel. 

Well yea but you do have to take history into account too

[zazen]

5 minutes ago, DawnC said:

I genuinely wonder what all of you would have done if 7/10 event happened in your country from a neighboring state with Hamas type regime still holding 240 hostages. I still haven't heard any realistic course of action, besides a somewhat obsessive approach towards calling out immoral deeds done by Israel. 

For a start not carpet bombing which has probably killed those very hostages. Not cutting of water, electricity, food etc for the civilians to suffer and the world to get more enraged. Those actions alone are sucking Israels support globally and only enraging the world further against it.

Using special ops forces to go in and take out Hamas - only targeting Hamas once they get confirmation of their location. When an entire area is levelled, how can Israel claim that Hamas was in every one of those buildings including the only main bakery the Gazans were using? They should use precision strikes on key locations. If they bring buildings down to rubble, yet claim Hamas are in tunnels, that rubble has now just made it harder to get access to those very tunnels and only given more potential for booby traps and ambush spots amongst the rubble.

They could establish good faith by ending restrictions and restarting the peace process.

[Something Funny]

16 minutes ago, DawnC said:

I genuinely wonder what all of you would have done if 7/10 event happened in your country from a neighboring state with Hamas type regime still holding 240 hostages. I still haven't heard any realistic course of action, besides a somewhat obsessive approach towards calling out immoral deeds done by Israel. 

Use infantry to occupy Gaza and eliminate Hamas soldiers, while also not denying basic necessities like Food, Water, and first aid to civilian population?

Hunt down and kill Hamas leaders using joined forces of the best intelligence agencies in the world??

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Something Funny

[Nivsch]

9 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Use infantry to occupy Gaza and eliminate Hamas soldiers, while also not denying basic necessities like Food, Water, and first aid to civilian population?

Hunt down and kill Hamas leaders using joined forced of the best intelligence agencies in the world??

 

In this way get prepared to lose 100-200 soldiers every day as hamas has a HUGE advantage on you since you have not destroyed his fortrees from the air first.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Nivsch

[Something Funny]

Just now, Nivsch said:

In this way get prepared to lose 1000 soldiers a day as hamas has a HUGE advantage of you since you didnt destroyed his fortrees from the air.

You won't lose 1000 soldiers a day. Even Russia doesn't lose that much with their shit troops, shit command, and "lets just throw human meat at them" strategy.

Israel has one of the best, well trained militaries in the world. 

Also, how are airstrikes going to help against tunnels build specifically to counter airstrike. 

And you've already basically leveled Gaza to the ground, is it safe to go in now?

[Something Funny]

11 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

In this way get prepared to lose 100-200 soldiers every day as hamas has a HUGE advantage on you since you have not destroyed his fortrees from the air first.

Ahaha. Love how you've chaged the number from 1000 to 100. 

Some profound military knowledge that is. Totally not just guessing random numbers.

Also, of course it's better to blow up civilians than to risk the lives of your own soldiers, we get it guys

[Nivsch]

5 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

You won't lose 1000 soldiers a day. Even Russia doesn't lose that much with their shit troops, shit command, and "lets just throw human meat at them" strategy.

Israel has one of the best, well trained militaries in the world. 

Also, how are airstrikes going to help against tunnels build specifically to counter airstrike. 

And you've already basically leveled Gaza to the ground, is it safe to go in now?

I fixed it to 100-200 this is quite realistic.

The tunnels are actully not the main threat. The war is in urban zone with from hamas can fire you from every building from above and from hiding places. This is an unacceptable advantage to hamas Israel must diminish first.

[Something Funny]

Just now, Nivsch said:

The tunnels are actully not the main threat. The war is in urban zone with from hamas can fire you from every building from above and from hiding places. This is an unacceptable advantage to hamas Israel must diminish first.

Like I've said. You've already basically leveled Gaza with the ground.

When will the threat be "diminished" enough?

[Nivsch]

6 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Like I've said. You've already basically leveled Gaza with the ground.

When will the threat be "diminished" enough?

100 times safer than if IDF would just enter Gaza without the air phase first to this impossible fortrees hamas has built for years.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Nivsch

[DawnC]

42 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

I would create a clear policy. 1 Hamas fighter death is not worth 1 Palestinian kid death. That rule would not be broken. 

Simple.

I was talking about a realistic approach. Not some moral detached criterion that was never met in the history of warfare. 

39 minutes ago, zazen said:

For a start not carpet bombing which has probably killed those very hostages. Not cutting of water, electricity, food etc for the civilians to suffer and the world to get more enraged. Those actions alone are sucking Israels support globally and only enraging the world further against it.

Using special ops forces to go in and take out Hamas - only targeting Hamas once they get confirmation of their location. When an entire area is levelled, how can Israel claim that Hamas was in every one of those buildings including the only main bakery the Gazans were using? They should use precision strikes on key locations. If they bring buildings down to rubble, yet claim Hamas are in tunnels, that rubble has now just made it harder to get access to those very tunnels and only given more potential for booby traps and ambush spots amongst the rubble.

They could establish good faith by ending restrictions and restarting the peace process.

 

38 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Use infantry to occupy Gaza and eliminate Hamas soldiers, while also not denying basic necessities like Food, Water, and first aid to civilian population?

Hunt down and kill Hamas leaders using joined forced of the best intelligence agencies in the world??

 

1. The expectation that Israel would provide their enemies' civilians with supplies is a very high moral stance to hold. Their actions might not be noble, but please, provide me an example in history where what you are suggesting happened. By the way, humanitarian aid did enter Gaza, and electricity is still running to some extent. It is clear that Hamas will use any aid they receive for militant activities, which is exactly what the Israelis are trying to prevent by insisting on limiting and controlling those supplies.

2. 'not carpet bombing' - the situation in Gaza is such that there are Hamas exit tunnels inside many houses, with numerous buildings rigged with mines and held by militants, sometimes entire areas. While this may not seem reasonable to you, this is how Hamas operates. For the most part, Israelis announce warnings to civilians before bombing these buildings. It's a military tactic that can be debated, but it falls within the spectrum of reasonable approaches considering Hamas's hold in those areas.

3. 'Hunt down and kill Hamas leaders using joined forced of the best intelligence agencies in the world??' - why do you think this is not happening? 

4. 'They could establish good faith by ending restrictions and restarting the peace process.' - Good luck making peace with an organization like Hamas. This is not a reasonable thing to expect a nation to do after enduring such an attack, and in this case, it would be a naive and irresponsible move on Israel's part, considering what Hamas is and the regional state of affairs.

Edited November 2, 2023 by DawnC

[Something Funny]

@Nivsch sorry, but the more I think about it, the more ridiculous it is.

Basically, according to your logic, Israel should level every building, every bit of infrastructure with the ground, killing everyone else in the process, until Gaza is as flat as a field, so that they feel safe enough.

Is that what you are advocating for?

[hundreth]

22 minutes ago, zazen said:

Using special ops forces to go in and take out Hamas - only targeting Hamas once they get confirmation of their location. When an entire area is levelled, how can Israel claim that Hamas was in every one of those buildings including the only main bakery the Gazans were using? They should use precision strikes on key locations. If they bring buildings down to rubble, yet claim Hamas are in tunnels, that rubble has now just made it harder to get access to those very tunnels and only given more potential for booby traps and ambush spots amongst the rubble.

Can you please explain this special forces obsession? How is this going to achieve anything when Hamas is spread out across 300 miles of underground tunnels? The hostages, spread out across 300 miles of underground tunnels. Are you going to plan an entire special ops operation for every single Hamas operative? That's even if you have a way of knowing where they are, which is basically impossible. It also achieves nothing, as it would take so long that over time Hamas would simply replace them and the status quo would continue.

Then you might ask, so how does air striking help if they're under the tunnels? I'll save you the trouble of this response. Israel's objective is for Gaza to no longer be governed by Hamas. Full stop. This means a full on ground invasion in a dangerous urban warzone. Many of these buildings are used as Hamas military posts, with sniper positions, etc. Clearing as much of this terrain helps the IDF go in. Obviously, its debatable from a civilian casualty point of view as well as military strategy wise for how far they should take this. You can have those debates, but keep in mind the bigger picture.

So I come back to special ops, what big picture objective would special ops forces achieve? A slow trickling of Hamas members being replaced over years, while the status quo continues? Seriously.

[hundreth]

4 minutes ago, Nabd said:

That's the only real and viable solution.

Do you really believe this is viable? Neither side wants this.

[Nivsch]

5 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

@Nivsch sorry, but the more I think about it, the more ridiculous it is.

Basically, according to your logic, Israel should level every building, every bit of infrastructure with the ground, killing everyone else in the process, until Gaza is as flat as a field, so that they feel safe enough.

Is that what you are advocating for?

No. There is a whole intelligence unit responsible to guide IDF airplanes into strategical buildings hamas uses. This is quite selective. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Nivsch

[Dabidoe]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What will happen after the civilian death toll goes over 100,000? This is gonna create so much hatred of Jews around the world. Is that going to really make Jews feel safe?

The US defied international law and killed over half a million civilians in our war directly, and even more indirectly in our "wars" that  went on for 20 years, and nobody made a fucking peep about it. We literally left 30,000 people who risked their lives for decades to help us in the middle of the night to be brutally raped and beheaded.

The hypocrisy of the argument that Israel is uniquely bad in their methods of killing terrorists seem to be largely aligned with the general consensus that "evil jew do bad." That said they've gone way too far. 

I agree that they've definitely overstepped their bounds and are not "reading the room" that they need to slow the fuck down and form a new plan. Jocko Willink discussed it and said "even though it's gonna suck to sacrifice your own people to try and protect terrorists (like we did) you have to go out of your way to show you're trying to save lives to prove your side is worth fighting for."

I have friends there on the ground and all of them are scared and angry, which is a horrible place to make tactical and strategic decisions. Netanyahu is a plague on that country...

Edited November 2, 2023 by Dabidoe

[DawnC]

4 minutes ago, Nabd said:

One State based on human rights: We must support the establishment of a single, democratic, secular state in all of historic Palestine, with equal rights for Christians, Muslims, and Jews, and, therefore, the dismantling of the deeply racist, settler-colonial project and an end to apartheid across the land.

That's the only real and viable solution.

That would imply the death of Israel and the death of democracy in the region. A classical 'la la land' solution.

[Nivsch]

Just now, DawnC said:

That would imply the death of Israel and the death of democracy in the region. A classical 'la la land' solution.

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