Posted October 26, 2023 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: At this point Israel is just carpet bombing Gaza: https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/25/middleeast/satellite-images-gaza-destruction/index.html The US should not be supporting this. This is not going to solve anything. @Leo Gura I understand where this is coming from , but a ground invasion is also not so simple, especially when there’s evidence going out like the one in this video of Hamas stopping civilians from Excavating out the areas they were warned away from. How can Israel deal with this strategically? https://youtu.be/kaK4muqkRBE?si=NSkSYqXdPew58Vm3 Edited October 26, 2023 by GabeN Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Vrubel said: @Leo Gura They should drop bouquets of flowers, that will teach them. What would anyone honestly expect after such an attack? Can you imagine if it was not Israel (that is heavily kept in check by the US), but a country like Russia, Turkey, China, or even the US being attacked the way Israel was attacked? 1) There are laws and norms against bombing civilians. 2) If Israel wants to commit war crimes, that is their business. But the US should not fund it. Funding this is damaging US reputation and will result in terrorist attacks in the US for a decade to come. The US does not need another "war on terror". Edited October 26, 2023 by Leo Gura You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 @Leo Gura If Israel wants to commit war crimes their leadership should go to court for war crimes like other countries have went. I dont see this happening. Do you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 (edited) @Leo Gura To be honest right after the attack I was still surprised Israel was warning civilians. If I am not mistaken more than 50% of Gazans are children and a way smaller proportion dies in the airstrikes so this should tell you something about Israel not targeting them. According to the concept of "collateral" The more valuable the target the more acceptable the collateral and Hamas made itself an incredibly valuable target. You sound very weak and afraid of terrorists, so eager to throw Israel under the bus. Completely playing into the hands of the most vile terrorists who have zero regard for anything. You also completely miss the moderating factor the US has on Israel. Edited October 26, 2023 by Vrubel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 @Vrubel That is why every UN impartial source says the war crimes happening there are out of control. Please stop with this biased bs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 (edited) @Vrubel Even if I try hard, I really can't see another way Israel can go through if the goal is to eliminate hamas. Edited October 26, 2023 by Nivsch 🌻 Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF. Israelis here? Let me know! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 @Nivsch Precision drone strikes and give back Palestinians more rights and work towards equality. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Vrubel said: @Leo Gura To be honest right after the attack I was still surprised Israel was warning civilians. If I am not mistaken more than 50% of Gazans are children and a way smaller proportion dies in the airstrikes so this should tell you that Israel not targeting them. 95%+ of people killed in Gaza have been civilians. Quote According to the concept of "collateral" The more valuable the target the more acceptable the collateral and Hamas made itself an incredibly value target. This is not going to be effective at eliminating Jihadists. Quote You sound very weak and afraid of terrorists, so eager to throw Israel under the bus. Completely playing into the hands of the most vile terrorists who have zero regard for anything. You also completely miss the moderating factor the US has on Israel. If Israel wants to commit war crimes, it throws itself under the bus. There should not be any support for nations who show reckless disregard for civilians. Terrorists do not appear out of thin air. They are created by bad policy from the West. These wars on terror are pointless distractions and drain of resources -- exactly what the terrorists want. Recklessly bombing civilians plays the most into terrorists hands. The US needs to be a beacon of integrity and neutrality, not jerking off Israel. Edited October 26, 2023 by Leo Gura You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: 1) There are laws and norms against bombing civilians. 2) If Israel wants to commit war crimes, that is their business. But the US should not fund it. Funding this is damaging US reputation and will result in terrorist attacks in the US for a decade to come. The US does not need another "war on terror". But what can Israel do differently? The main problem is that without do those carpet bombings to neutralize hamas's traps and hamas's strategical advantage, Israeli soldiers will be sitting ducks in the field. Edited October 26, 2023 by Nivsch 🌻 Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF. Israelis here? Let me know! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: @Nivsch Precision drone strikes and give back Palestinians more rights and work towards equality. This conception has been tried and proven wrong and backfired again and again when it comes to the palestinians. You dont know how much work-permissions Israel gave them during last years. Thousands. It only did the opposite result. Edited October 26, 2023 by Nivsch 🌻 Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF. Israelis here? Let me know! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 3 minutes ago, Nivsch said: But what can Israel do differently? The main problem is that without do those carpet bombings to neutralize hamas's traps and hamas's strategical advantage, Israeli soldiers will be sitting ducks in the field. This invasion will not help Israel live in peace. It will be a decade's long disaster for both sides. You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 @Leo Gura 9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: The US needs to be a beacon of integrity and neutrality, not jerking off Israel. I’m curious didn’t the US also assist in ending Isis not only because it was a problem for Syria, but potentially for the world? I don’t see hamas less dangerous than isis at this point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iP6pkuSJysU Former Israeli prime minister is worried objective journalism serves Hamas. No wonder why there is a massive ongoing wave of mccarthyism, censorship, cancel culture and insufficient coverage for the Palestinian side. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, GabeN said: @Leo Gura I’m curious didn’t the US also assist in ending Isis not only because it was a problem for Syria, but potentially for the world? I don’t see hamas less dangerous than isis at this point. 1) The US created ISIS with bad policy. Which is what Israel will also do. 2) Hamas is more complicated because Palestinians will still live in the region and still need a political solution to their situation. You have a situation there which will keep respawning radical Jihadists. Edited October 26, 2023 by Leo Gura You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 59 minutes ago, Vrubel said: @Leo Gura They should drop bouquets of flowers, that will teach them. What would anyone honestly expect after such an attack? Can you imagine if it was not Israel (that is heavily kept in check by the US), but a country like Russia, Turkey, China, or even the US being attacked the way Israel was attacked? Thats the point, Israel aren't kept in check by the US enough, and because of this have become ''a spoiled brat you're unable to say no to" which has grown up to be "a sociopath '' in the words of Rahma Zain. By IDF's logic, the mass shooting in Maine today would be tackled by bombing the whole place in order to eliminate him, or to eliminate a school shooter hidden among class rooms it would be to bomb the school. 1 hour ago, Nivsch said: @zazen The occupation of west bank has nothing to do with hamas-ISIS attack on october 7th in the same way that the occupation of west bank didnt cause the 11.9 attack and all the terror attacks in europe during the last decade. BTW Jerusalem is part of the west bank and because our deep connection to Jerusalem I think it is justified to occupay at least half of the city, so anyway part of the occupation has valid reasons to it if you want to be fair. Actually eastern jerusalem is highly occupied by arabs even today. Nice propaganda putting Hamas and Isis together to villainize and delegitimise the Palestinian cause further. If we take spiral dynamics seriously and the framework of holism, nothing just happens by itself. Thats the kind of thinking which causes the problem to never be resolved. This ''deep connection'' is claimed by both sides rendering the debate zero sum, absolute and mutually exclusive. Thats been the problem with negotiations - all the offers involved offering Abu Dis, the village outside of Jerusalem - never the part of Jerusalem (East) where many Palestinians living in the muslim/christian quarter. They also insisted on maintaining three military outposts within West Bank which only further extends the security apparatus and control of Israel onto the so called autonomous Palestinian state. Did Palestinians reserve the same right to have military outposts in Israel? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: This invasion will not help Israel live in peace. It will be a decade's long disaster for both sides. The thing is that the much restrainted attitude has already been tried during the last 15 years. Edited October 26, 2023 by Nivsch 🌻 Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF. Israelis here? Let me know! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: This invasion will not help Israel live in peace. It will be a decade's long disaster for both sides. Interesting analysis https://twitter.com/FromKulak/status/1717414661174223089 ''Israel can't really "win" with this invasion. Hamas may have 50-100k trained soldiers of some quality, and another 100-200k volunteers from Gazan males... Almost all of them acting as infantry. If Israel has a 5-1 or 10:1 kill:loss ratio (which with small consumer drones in an urban setting might be a tall order) that would completely shred a good chunk of Israel's 20-30k Non-reserve infantry, the majority of which has to be kept on other fronts to deter Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, and potentially Egypt if things REALLY pop off. And Israel can't reconstitute its forces away from the American model of a 15% infantry Army, because they need all their technical processes and advanced weapons systems to deter those less advanced neighbors. The last time Israel suffered 1000s dead or 10s of thousands wounded and came away with a clear victory was the Yom Kippur War of '73, a defensive war fought against conventional armor. In the mire of urban fighting and attempted occupation there's a good chance they'd reach a point where politically and socially the Israeli population and soldiers won't accept any more... at which point they'd have to pull back, giving Hamas a massive political victory, tarnishing their prestige, and risking that an emboldened Hamas and radical population doesn't accept the cease fire, but periodically does raids on Israel every couple months. The Average age in Gaza is 18, with a low life expectancy. Ultimately Hamas knows any casualties they suffer will be replaced quickly. Israel by contrast can't take large casualties, its beleaguered secular Jewish population, despite being 40% of the population, suffers 80-90% of the cost of conscription on their sons and daughters and was already in a state of near revolt against the religious coalition in government. A brutal urban campaign that might quickly become the equivalent of a Vietnam could make many of these second passport holding jews emigrate, and could destroy the culture that allows conscription to function. Already large cross sections of Israeli men and women Fake religiosity, Marriages, or get bogus mental health diagnoses to escape the draft... and many that can't just emigrate. One military disaster could send the IDF or Israeli social demographics into a death spiral. The Rhodesian light infantry never significantly lost on the field of battle, but mere demographic and economic outmigration broke the Rhodesian state. There's a lot of concern that this could erupt into a wider regional war with Iran or even world war 3 if Russia got involved and things spiralled.... But another Major risk is Israel gets into a rolling low intensity fight it can't break off from for years such as Vietnam or Afghanistan or What the war on drugs is in central America and the worst American cities... There's a scenario where Israel never gets a major war where it can call on American support, and never gets a ceasefire where it can repair its social fabric... and instead Conscription and danger just bleed away the country of the upper-middle-class secular jews who drive its economy and fight its wars, back into the economies of Europe and North America, or onto even more foreign shores. Hamas and other islamists insist their strength is that they're faithful and don't fear death the way Israelis do... the truth is less romantic, their "strength" is they don't have better options or second passports to slip their children to first world countries away from warzones.'' Edited October 26, 2023 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 46 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: 1) There are laws and norms against bombing civilians. 2) If Israel wants to commit war crimes, that is their business. But the US should not fund it. Funding this is damaging US reputation and will result in terrorist attacks in the US for a decade to come. The US does not need another "war on terror". I will explain what you saw on these photos as an Israeli, Ex-IDF soldier. Hamas is smart, they put all of their terror infrastructures inside civilized buildings, in kindergarten, schools, and their actual main headquarters are under shifa hospital - the biggest hospital in Gaza. The same electricity generators that powers shifa hospital is the one powering Hamas headquarters!!! They know we are western country, and it’s horrible for us to hit and kill civilians. We always tried and always will try to not harm civilians, we are not the terrorist they are. But with all of the respect we can’t allow ourselves to not massively respond to the examination of Hamas. Hamas can’t continue to exist all they bring is destruction, death, and horror. The Palestinians in Gaza are poor and broken people, and most of them, support Hamas-Isis. I condemn these people and actually disgusted by them, and I still acknowledge their deep suffering and try as much as possible to not harm them. If Israel wanted to do war crime we have fucking nukes we can exterminate Gaza with one fucking bomb this is ridiculous. We try to catch them with tweezers and it’s very hard because the things I mentioned above. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 (edited) @Leo Gura I see myself as a relatively conscious guy, nothing special but still, I have done a good amount of psychedelics, am open-minded, don't have extreme political views, I was very critical of the current Israeli government. I am Jewish but I don't take it too seriously, definitely not religious, I am also Russian. But the thing that makes this attack so evil because it shows that there are hellish fates a million times worse than death (I don't know If you have seen the notes of that closed meeting for journalists on Hamas atrocities). I am not proud of it. But I lost a good portion of my innocence and I have to accept now that I also have an extremely cruel and genocidal side. For me, it's starkly clear how Israel is not targeting civilians and limiting casualties but I understand that for an innocent westerner that is hard to see. Edited October 26, 2023 by Vrubel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 26, 2023 25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: This invasion will not help Israel live in peace. It will be a decade's long disaster for both sides. I don’t agree. They have an army of terrorist there and we need to clean and exterminate all terror infrastructures and jihadists. They can’t take responsibility on themselves, We will do them favor, exterminate Hamas and all terror infrastructure and then will create now leaders and fund them with the us and un creating new leadership for Gaza that will create some good for them cause all they created was shit Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
