New War In Israel / Gaza

[Karmadhi]

@Leo Gura

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Israel is a liberal democrate state with a modern Western military.

It is also toxic Blue and overly nationalistic with a toxic Zionist Ideology. Being a liberal democracy is irrelevant when your entire population is brainwashed. I know people that visited there and told me the amount of brainwashing they put kids from early school is insane. A brainwashed population will elect brainwash leaders that dehumanize their "enemies" and have no moral qualms about killing them.

It is not rocket science.

Most of Israeli s population was born after Israel was founded and have been brainwashed all their life to believe they are right.

Also the current government being Zionist does not help.

Zionism is quite toxic if you have read about it. 

You can find plenty of intellectually honest Israelis deeply critizining their governments and calling out their propaganda bullshit and inhumane treatment of palestininas 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Mohammad]

10 minutes ago, Nabd said:

I'm surprised that Leo is Russian yet he can't see through the bullshit of politicians. It's usually something people who are not from the west see it easily.

I've noticed that too, although I think Leos perspective is mostly accurate and unbiased, but I also think he gives credit to official narrative of politicians a little much.

[lina]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What is meant by "give Palestine a state" is simply, give them a military with control over air space. Netanyahu refuses to give them air space control because then they might bomb Israel with planes or invade with tanks.

This does not make Netanyahu some monster. He has a right to worry about what radicals in Palestine might do with a proper military.

 

If you need to disarm, besiege, imprison and sabotage the livelihood of your neighbor to ensure your security and survival, then maybe it's time to question the legitimacy of your establishment. But of course, we live in a corrupt world where the strong will exploit  the weak with no regard to any morality or ethicality.

Palestinian leadership in the west bank recognizes Israel and doesn't use violence, yet Israel's land grab, killing of civilians,  imprisonment of children has been going on. Hamas had no existence prior to the 80s, yet Israel's same strategy of expansionism on the cost of human lives has been nonstop. 

 narratives like this will only lead to oppressing the weaker side and help in fueling hate and terrorism. I don't really see a way for peace before holding Israel accountable first for their crimes. 

There has been some conflicting news about Hamas's willingness to negotiate with Israel if approved 1967 borders but no cooperation was met by either side so both Hamas and Israel are killing the process, so supporting this war and picking a side will only result in more civilian deaths with no peace in horizon. 
 

26 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If you think about it, a modern military does not have good reason to bomb hospitals full of civilians. Israel does not want that kind of bad PR. If you are Israel you want to reduce backlash from international community just for selfish reasons.

Only if their intention is to actually ethnic cleanse Palestinians or force surrounding countries to take them in, which has already been told by one of their officials. 

[PurpleTree]

Who is worse, the son of a dictator who inherits the dictatorship

or the guy who tries to turn a flourishing, vibrant democracy into a shitshow. Seems that‘s what netanyahu is doing.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, lina said:

Only if their intention is to actually ethnic cleanse Palestinians

That is NOT what the Israeli military is doing. If you believe that, you're blinded by bias.

There is no scenario in which Israel takes Gaza land for itself to settle. That issue is closed.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, lina said:

If you need to disarm, besiege, imprison and sabotage the livelihood of your neighbor to ensure your security and survival, then maybe it's time to question the legitimacy of your establishment.

That isn't the issue. The issue is Palestine is so under-developed that it cannot sustain a democracy which does not turn into a terrorist state. Any weak state in the Middle East will be taken over by Jihadist forces if the window is allowed.

The reason Netanyahu has to keep Palestine disarmed is not because he hates Palestinians, it's because he cannot allow a terrorist state to form.

If you are serious at all about this issue, answer this: How do you prevent a weak democracy from getting hijacked by Jihadists? If you actually bother to contemplate this question seriously, you will realize you have no solution. Which is why Netanyahu has the position he has. Not because he is some cartoon villian.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Mohammad]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

That isn't the issue. The issue is Palestine is so under-developed that it cannot sustain a democracy which does not turn into a terrorist state. Any weak state in the Middle East will be taken over by Jihadist forces if the window is allowed.

so what is the solution? More developed states, even if they are a little more developed, should take matter in their own hands and dictate what the less developed should do? What do you think is the solution Leo, how should more developed states should deal with less developed ones, especially when they are located near each other?

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Mohammad said:

so what is the solution?

There is no solution. Which is why we have war and threats of more war.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Mohammad]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no solution. Which is why we have war and threats of more wars.

So the big guy must finally crush the weak ones, and then peace will come, right? This is hard to admit. We are moral beings. This kind of thinking goes against that. but I think it's the truth.

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Mohammad said:

So the big guy must finally crush the weak ones, and then peace will come, right? This is hard to admit. We are moral beings. This kind of thinking goes against that. but I think it's the truth.

Fundamentally Palestine does not have a high enough stage of development to sustain democracy. Democracy can only exist at stage Orange. Palestine is stage Red. That means any attempt to establish a democracy there will fail, as it gets hijacked by jihadist warlords. Stage Red government is warlords all fighting with each other until a dictator crushes them under one iron fist and dictates order through brutally excuting all opposition. In the case of Palestine that means some radical Islamic, theocractic dictator. Who will be funded by Iran and want to exterminate all the Jews from the Middle East.

Of course Israel will oppose that in every possible way. Netanyahu clearly understands all this. Many of you guys here do not. Most liberals and progressives do not.

The US tried for 10 years to establish a democracy in Iraq and it turned into a total clusterfuck hijacked by jihadist warlords. So this is not a hypthetical. This is the reality of that region. Over half a million Iraqi civilians died in the fighting. The US didn't kill them all, they mostly killed each other in a desperate attempt to establish a power hierarchy with one guy at the top.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[zazen]

The progressive ''development'' of civilisation is conflated with culture or state of consciousness. 

Civilisation is about tools, that which is wielded.

Culture is of consciousness, the wielder himself. 

Civilisation is about achievements, quantitative. 

Culture is about awakening, qualitative.

What good is it to perfect the tool wielded in the hand when that hand be shaky of what it holds and worse, malevolent with it.

A ''developed'' and ''modern'' nation has more powerful and sophisticated tools at its disposable to misuse its power and propagandise its people. Corruption is finite in its goodwill, but infinite in its will to disguise itself as good, and a nation with more power will exercise its malevolence in more covert ways that blind us to it.

What we call democracy is really a Ethnocracy. In the same way spiral dynamics makes a distinction between waking up and growing up, I think their needs to be made a distinction between civilisation and culture.

Civilisation develops power, culture inculcates a state of being worthy of having a prowess of that power.

Less developed people don't mean less developed in heart or good conscience, but in the physical sphere of quantitative power and technology - but we equate the two.

 

The fear is of Palestinians getting revenge on Israel for the past. It depends on what sort of Islam is predominant, but the extremist strains of it have been funded by the West and radicalised to the point that now Muslim countries aren't even trusted to have strong military capabilities. Real cluster fuck of a situation. Of course, if the muslims de-radicalise and embrace the more liberal versions of Islam as practiced before that gave birth to the golden age then there would be no worries. But all this regime change crusade around the middle east and war on terror propaganda to demonise a Islam has only made it worse and inflamed divisive religious lines.

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by zazen

[Mohammad]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Fundamentally Palestine does not have a high enough stage of development to sustain democracy. Democracy can only exist at stage Orange. Palestine is stage Red. That means any attempt to establish a democracy there will fail, as it gets hijacked by jihadist warlords. Stage Red government is warlords all fighting with each other until a dictator crushes them under one iron fist and dictates order through brutally excuting all opposition. In the case of Palestine that means some radical Islamic, theocractic dictator. Who will be funded by Iran and want to exterminate all the Jews from the Middle East.

Of course Israel will oppose that in every possible way. Netanyahu clearly understands all this. Most of you guys here do not.

I am not sure about Palestine being mostly stage red, but I agree with you. This is unfortunately the reality of the situation.

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Mohammad said:

I am not sure about Palestine being mostly stage red, but I agree with you. This is unfortunately the reality of the situation.

If a state is run by terrorists, they are not even at stage Blue yet. Stage Blue would be an Iran-like opressive theocracy. Palestine has a lot of work to do just to reach that level.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Starlight321]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Fundamentally Palestine does not have a high enough stage of development to sustain democracy. Democracy can only exist at stage Orange. Palestine is stage Red. That means any attempt to establish a democracy there will fail, as it gets hijacked by jihadist warlords. Stage Red government is warlords all fighting with each other until a dictator crushes them under one iron fist and dictates order through brutally excuting all opposition. In the case of Palestine that means some radical Islamic, theocractic dictator. Who will be funded by Iran and want to exterminate all the Jews from the Middle East.

Of course Israel will oppose that in every possible way. Netanyahu clearly understands all this. Many of you guys here do not. Most liberals and progressives do not.

@Leo Gurasounds to me like that what happened in gaza when they had free elections and kicked out fatah 20 years ago.

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Starlight321 said:

@Leo Gurasounds to me like that what happened in gaza when they had free elections and kicked out fatah 20 years ago.

Of course! That's no mere coincidence of history. It had to be that way. Some weak-willed, LGBTQ liberal cannot rule Palestine. That's an insane Western projection. They need a Saddam Hussein character to run that place. Because anyone weaker will just be shot in head by someone who has the will to do it. You have to have the will to murder people with your own hands to hold power there. If you are not willing to murder your friends, you cannot rule Palestine. This is the crux of the issue. And anyone willing to murder his friends will have no qualms murdering Jews.

Now, how do you solve that?!

Edited October 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[PurpleTree]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Fundamentally Palestine does not have a high enough stage of development to sustain democracy. Democracy can only exist at stage Orange. Palestine is stage Red. That means any attempt to establish a democracy there will fail, as it gets hijacked by jihadist warlords. Stage Red government is warlords all fighting with each other until a dictator crushes them under one iron fist and dictates order through brutally excuting all opposition. In the case of Palestine that means some radical Islamic, theocractic dictator. Who will be funded by Iran and want to exterminate all the Jews from the Middle East.

Of course Israel will oppose that in every possible way. Netanyahu clearly understands all this. Many of you guys here do not. Most liberals and progressives do not.

The US tried for 10 years to establish a democracy in Iraq and it turned into a total clusterfuck hijacked by jihadist warlords. So this is not a hypthetical. This is the reality of that region. Over half a million Iraqi civilians died in the fighting. The US didn't kill them all, they mostly killed each other in a desperate attempt to establish a power hierarchy with one guy at the top.

Then let’s install a „decent“ monarchy there, like in jordan

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Nabd said:

The US did not try to establish a democracy in Iraq

Stop saying nonsense!

Iraq held democratic elections many times. But they failed to work as they should because everyone there is so tribal and underdeveloped they don't have a national identity. And they are too corrupt to have a legal system.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Then let’s install a „decent“ monarchy there, like in jordan

To install a monarchy you gotta kill tens of thousands of people and brutally repress the rest into accepting it.

And even then your monarch will be a Islamist aligned with Iran. Because if he isn't he will be overthrown within a year. Your monarch will be so insecure he will build a massive army and point it where? At Israel of course.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Leo Gura

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

To install a monarchy you gotta kill tens of thousands of people and brutally repress the rest into accepting it.

Sure lets go. But it has to be a really decent monarchy with many social institutions. Then at some point palestinians can outgrow the monarchy and grow into a democracy at their own pace like europeans at some point.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Sure lets go. But it has to be a really decent monarchy with many social institutions. Then at some point palestinians can outgrow the monarchy and grow into a democracy at their own pace like europeans at some point.

If the West tries to impose a pro-Western, pro-Jewish puppet monarch, he will be overthrown by the locals, just like in Afghanistan. You can't just do these things from the outside. It has to come from within.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Leo Gura