Posted November 3, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said: What Israel wants is what its leaders have said publicly: revenge on human animals, and it's what is happening now. When cannot handle the complexity of the situation, our brain must pave a shortcut and just blame one side very strongly and make absurd claims about him in order to feel calm again. Edited November 3, 2023 by Nivsch 🏔 Spiral dynamics can be limited, or it can be unlimited if one's development is constantly reflected in its interpretation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 4 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said: Yeah someone on this thread already posted a video saying that if Hamas built tunnels underground in Israel they would not do carpet bombing (obviously) So the Israelis should treat their own civilians the same way they treat Palestinian civilians? Don't you see the absurdity of that expectation? When has that kind of thinking ever been present in the decision-making of any country in any conflict in world history? You can have criticism about a military tactic, but this expectation is just absurd. 1 minute ago, Twentyfirst said: Who said Iran was bad? If they defend Palestine against Israeli war crimes then they seem to be good to me! This is exactly the immature perspective I was talking about. Iran poses a significant danger to freedom, democracy, and humanity, actually. You may have different ways to address this, but the danger is very clear. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 Some points of view from Palestinian Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 7 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said: For me, the issue of torture is significant. From the beginning there was talk of babies intentionally burned alive, beheadings of babies, mutilations and torture. Then the government said that it was going to show it publicly and it did not, it showed 45 minutes of recordings to a group of journalists, they did not mention anything about torture, but about civilians being shot, a case of a father who fled with two children and was thrown a grenade, the children survive terrified, the Hamas terrorist takes them to the kitchen and gives them a Cocacola, then the terrified mother arrives and the recording is interrupted, it is terrible but it is not the same as burning children alive or amputating their hands to see how they bleed to death. These stories, spread by the IDF and the government, but which are not supported by images, are lies, since if they were true they would have been spread. The only motivation for spreading these lies is to justify what was planned to be done: genocide. Throwing phosphorus bombs at civilians is genocide, Israel is a criminal state and in a very short time the entire international community will admit this fact. If you dig far enough, you'll find the horrifying videos. To my understanding, it's quite the contrary. The Israeli government doesn't post those videos because they are aware of their responsibility. They understand that the Israeli public would be completely shocked and traumatized, and they want to prevent the public from calling for irresponsible and extreme measures due to strong emotions. The question is, what do you need to see to believe? Don't succumb to conspiracy-like thinking. There are videos and photos out there if you so desire. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 15 minutes ago, DawnC said: So the Israelis should treat their own civilians the same way they treat Palestinian civilians? Don't you see the absurdity of that expectation? When has that kind of thinking ever been present in the decision-making of any country in any conflict in world history? You can have criticism about a military tactic, but this expectation is just absurd. This is exactly the immature perspective I was talking about. Iran poses a significant danger to freedom, democracy, and humanity, actually. You may have different ways to address this, but the danger is very clear. Then why pretend in the first place that they care about a peaceful two state solution? Listen. Who is Iran posing a danger to? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said: Some points of view from Palestinian Is he from West Bank or Gaza? I wish we would see more like him. 🏔 Spiral dynamics can be limited, or it can be unlimited if one's development is constantly reflected in its interpretation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 6 minutes ago, Nivsch said: Is he from West Bank or Gaza? I wish we would see more like him. Thats literally exactly what we have been saying in this thread but you took it as an attack against Jews Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 10 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said: Thats literally exactly what we have been saying in this thread but you took it as an attack against Jews What hurts me is that the discussion here blames Israel automatically without doing any little effort to check if there is at all another realistic way to eliminate hamas without causing the amount of casualties we have seen. Because maybe really there is no other way to do that and people here fall prey to what hamas most wanted them to in his propaganda. 🏔 Spiral dynamics can be limited, or it can be unlimited if one's development is constantly reflected in its interpretation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 34 minutes ago, DawnC said: If you dig far enough, you'll find the horrifying videos. To my understanding, it's quite the contrary. The Israeli government doesn't post those videos because they are aware of their responsibility What horrible videos have you seen? I have read what they showed the journalists and it is horrible but it is not torture. It's possible that there have been, I don't deny it, I'm just interested in knowing the truth about that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 2 minutes ago, Nivsch said: What hurts me is that the discussion here blames Israel automatically without doing any little effort to check if there is at all another realistic way to eliminate hamas If the IDF proposes the evacuation of civilians, but Hamas does not allow it, then it would be obvious that they are trying to minimize civilian casualties. If the IDF cuts off electricity in hospitals and drops phosphorus bombs, it is obvious that this is revenge against civilians. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 7 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said: If the IDF proposes the evacuation of civilians, but Hamas does not allow it, then it would be obvious that they are trying to minimize civilian casualties. Thats exactly what IDF did. 🏔 Spiral dynamics can be limited, or it can be unlimited if one's development is constantly reflected in its interpretation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 7 minutes ago, Nivsch said: Thats exactly what IDF did. If so, then I'm wrong, but for now it seems more like he's pretending to do that in the face of public opinion, but deliberately punishing civilians, everything will be analyzed in detail and then we can make an opinion based on the facts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said: What horrible videos have you seen? I have read what they showed the journalists and it is horrible but it is not torture. It's possible that there have been, I don't deny it, I'm just interested in knowing the truth about that. Unfortunately for me, since I'm interested in geopolitics and international relations, and I understand a little bit of Arabic, I was connected to Telegram channels before 7/10. I was exposed to original videos by Hamas in Telegram channels on 7/10. I saw kidnappings in brutal ways, executions, burned bodies, and body parts torn off. I saw a body torn apart from a brutal, ongoing beating. I saw naked women's bodies on a truck. I saw two burned bodies that were tied to a burning bed. There are evidence of body parts being cut off and brutal rapes, which I intentionally avoided. I think I'm emotionally stable, but this is just too much. Edited November 3, 2023 by DawnC Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said: Then why pretend in the first place that they care about a peaceful two state solution? There is a huge difference between having a desire to live peacefully with your neighbors and caring for them the same way you care about your own people. 1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said: Listen. Who is Iran posing a danger to? The Gulf countries, Middle Eastern nations, stability in the region, Ukraine, the US and Europe, along with Iran's secular and moderate populations—essentially, the Iranian regime poses a threat to the civilized world. Their entire belief system is built on opposing America and the West, and they are determined to gain control over their entire region. Ask yourself what made the Abraham Accords possible. The moderate Gulf countries understand this threat better than any of us. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 15 hours ago, Breakingthewall said: I have seen videos of shootings and of a girl with the broken legs in a van, but the Israeli government insists on generalized torture, burning children alive and things like that, 3 days ago they said they were going to show images the next day, and then they didn't. Much of the anger towards Hamas is because of this, and it justifies the bombings for many. Would be interesting to know if it's true There's many more videos than that. There's literally a video out there of Hamas surgically opening a pregnant women and pulling the baby out while the live mother is screaming in horror. Are you living under a rock? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 1 minute ago, hundreth said: There's many more videos than that. There's literally a video out there of Hamas surgically opening a pregnant women and pulling the baby out while the live mother is screaming in horror. Are you living under a rock? I wouldn't call not visiting weird websites to watch gore videos - living under a rock... 🌺🌺🌺 My Favourite Moderator 🌺🌺🌺 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 10 minutes ago, Something Funny said: I wouldn't call not visiting weird websites to watch gore videos - living under a rock... There's no weird websites, many Hamas videos were widely circulated the day of the attack. They were all over, the combat footage subreddit made the front page. Breakingwall keeps suggesting reports of brutalities and torture by Hamas Israeli propaganda. If he's so interested in seeing the footage, it really isn't difficult. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, hundreth said: There's literally a video out there of Hamas surgically opening a pregnant women and pulling the baby out while the live mother is screaming in horror If that is true, why has it not been talked about or shown as an example of Hamas's brutality? I guess you understand that it is easy to tie a guy charred by a bomb to the bed or upload a video of another massacre, but the reality is that the IDF has the cameras of the Hamas terrorists in their possession, and they have shown a selection of 45 minute images to journalists, and there is no torture https://misbar.com/en/factcheck/2023/10/26/israeli-accounts-share-deceptive-video-accusing-hamas-of-killing-a-pregnant-woman Edited November 3, 2023 by Breakingthewall Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 21 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said: If that is true, why has it not been talked about or shown as an example of Hamas's brutality? I guess you understand that it is easy to tie a guy charred by a bomb to the bed or upload a video of another massacre, but the reality is that the IDF has the cameras of the Hamas terrorists in their possession, and they have shown a selection of 45 minute images to journalists, and there is no torture https://misbar.com/en/factcheck/2023/10/26/israeli-accounts-share-deceptive-video-accusing-hamas-of-killing-a-pregnant-woman So this is the hill you want to die on? You're disputing Hamas' brutality? That's what you consider propaganda? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 3, 2023 4 minutes ago, Nabd said: Nasrallah appeared from his underground bunker addressing thousands of people who slept in the streets the past night waiting for him to speak. He said the same bullshit he was expected to say when shit hit the fan. He said the attack was is purely Palestinian and that they already entered the war from the 2nd day. So Nasrallah who threatened Israel every time he appeared with thousands of rockets and hitting nuclear sites can't do more than what he already did which is attack few empty villages here and there and injuring a soldier and exploding a radar and occasionally shelling a Syrian site instead of an Israeli one. That's it. These guys are only good for killing their civilians and raping their women and producing Ceptagon. A dog never bites its tail and Nasrallah will never attack Israel. He will just keep this bs and rot and die someday when someone assassinate him thus ending his life without a single war where he actually attack Israel. He appeared to say "you guys are on your own in Gaza" which is hopefully a good thing so people will understand Iran is not gonna fight Israel. I've seen you post this sentiment quite a bit, that you're disappointed other Arab governments and terrorist organizations don't attack Israel. Seems you really want to see an escalation. Am I reading you correctly? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
