New War In Israel / Gaza

[Twentyfirst]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Today the IDF admitted to killing 80+ civilians to kill 1 Hamas person.

And they have no qualms about this. So this is their philosophy.

At this rate they will kill 100,000 civilians just to kill 10% of Hamas.

What will happen after the civilian death toll goes over 100,000? This is gonna create so much hatred of Jews around the world. Is that going to really make Jews feel safe?

If 100,000 civilians die including 10% of Hamas it will create so much frustration that more people will join Hamas and that 10% will automatically be replenished

[Lila9]

The October 7 massacre map:

https://oct7map.com/

 

[Twentyfirst]

9 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

The October 7 massacre map:

https://oct7map.com/

 

What a tragedy and outrage! Why would Hamas do this!? Maybe because Jewish people invaded Palestinian land in 1948?

Edited November 2, 2023 by Twentyfirst

[Lila9]

2 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

What a tragedy and outrage! Why would Hamas do this!? Maybe because Jewish people invaded Palestinian land in 1948?

Of course, every crime against Jews is justified. Let's eliminate them and kill all of them because they dared to build a country to save themselves from Nazis.

Antisemitism is on raise. It never really disappeared.

[DawnC]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Today the IDF admitted to killing 80+ civilians to kill 1 Hamas person.

And they have no qualms about this. So this is their philosophy.

At this rate they will kill 100,000 civilians just to kill 10% of Hamas.

What will happen after the civilian death toll goes over 100,000? This is gonna create so much hatred of Jews around the world. Is that going to really make Jews feel safe?

@Leo Gura

A simplistic form of consideration and analysis. This is heavily dependent on the individuals involved. It hinges on who the person in question is and who the civilians are. Would you hesitate to eliminate this individual if it meant that 80 civilians would die, assuming this is the guy and those are the civilians?

 

 

It's easy to be moral when your own survival isn't at stake.

edit: 

my points are:

1. It is simplistic to make numerical calculations based on a single scenario and then draw conclusions about the entire conflict.

2. Drawing a moral conclusion based solely on casualty numbers is overly simplistic.

3. The moral standard we put Israel to may be unrealistic during war.

Edited November 2, 2023 by DawnC

[Something Funny]

@DawnC it's disgusting to see you compare the costs of human lives like that.

If you think that killing him is worth 80 other lives then it ahould be your and your family's lives.

If I gave you a choice: I will kill this guy but you and your whole family have to die. 

Are you going to agree to that deal?

16 minutes ago, DawnC said:

It's easy to be moral when your own survival isn't at stake.

Yeah, exactly. 

[Something Funny]

@DawnC also, ironically, this is exactly how Hamas thinks and that's why, I assume, you have an issue with them.

Ends justify the means.

By fighting Hamas like that, you become Hamas.

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Something Funny

[Vrubel]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This is gonna create so much hatred of Jews around the world. Is that going to really make Jews feel safe?

There were anti-Semitic riots in South America after Israel kidnapped a Nazi war criminal from Argentina, People are going to hate Jews no matter what, this is a very deep point. Anti-Semitism has always been the shadow of the Jews. That's the whole reason Israel cannot not exist. Even with all the terror and wars it is better that Jews have a country than be at the mercy of antisemitism in for example Russia. 

[DawnC]

14 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

@DawnC it's disgusting to see you compare the costs of human lives like that.

If you think that killing him is worth 80 other lives then it ahould be your and your family's lives.

If I gave you a choice: I will kill this guy but you and your whole family have to die. 

Are you going to agree to that deal?

Yeah, exactly. 

It's not a matter of 'comparing the value of human lives', it's about grasping what exactly you're proposing. If this individual were shooting at you and advocating for genocide against your people from a house containing 80 civilians who support him, you might perceive things differently.

Edited November 2, 2023 by DawnC

[DawnC]

19 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

@DawnC also, ironically, this is exactly how Hamas thinks and that's why, I assume, you have an issue with them.

Ends justify the means.

By fighting Hamas like that, you become Hamas.

 

I didn't say that. I never suggested killing civilians indiscriminately or doing any other thing that Hamas did intentionally. Again, consider an individual shooting at at you and advocating for genocide against your people from a house containing 80 civilians who support him.

Can't you see the significant, fundamental difference here?

Edited November 2, 2023 by DawnC

[Something Funny]

3 minutes ago, DawnC said:

It's not a matter of 'comparing the value of human lives', it's about grasping what exactly you're proposing. If this individual were shooting at you and advocating for genocide against your people from a house containing 80 civilians who support him, you might perceive things differently.

Yes it is. That's exactly what you are doing. Comparing a value of human lives.

Why couldn't this have been a ground operation, using troop to catch and eliminate him?

Because Israel values the lives of its soldiers more than it does the lives of Palestine civilians.

5 minutes ago, DawnC said:

If this individual were shooting at you and advocating for genocide against your people from a house containing 80 civilians who support him, you might perceive things differently.

This is a ridiculous scenario. 

He wasn't shooting at anyone at the moment.

There was no hard proof that he was even there in the first place.

You have no idea who those 80 civilians were supporting nor should it matter as supporting someone is not a death sentence worthy offence. At least not according to the laws of the 1st world countries, which Israel claims to be.

And even if your fairy tail scenario was the case. Lets says it was some terrorist holding 80 people hostage and shooting everyone else in the middle of New York. 

There is no way a solution would be to kill them all together. 

 

[Something Funny]

2 minutes ago, DawnC said:

I didn't say that. I never suggested killing civilians indiscriminately or doing any other thing that Hamas did intentionally. Again, consider an individual shooting at at you and advocating for genocide against your people from a house containing 80 civilians who support him.

That's exactly what you've said and keep saying.

He was not posing any active danger to anyone. This was a strategic decision to eliminate him without regard for other human lives.

There was no proof that this strike will kill him or that he is there.

You have no way of telling whose side those civilians were on.

It was in the middle of a refugee camp.

 

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

Of course, every crime against Jews is justified. Let's eliminate them and kill all of them because they dared to build a country to save themselves from Nazis.

Antisemitism is on raise. It never really disappeared.

Do you see? Do you see how your mind works?

[zazen]

@Something Funny @DawnC

From time stamp 3:23 on discusses this very predicament - if Hamas / terrorists were in Israel, would 80 civilian causalities be killed as collateral damage to target 1 terrorist.

 

Also, the video of Palestinians celebrating the breaking of the fence-border isn't necessarily them celebrating Hamas terrorising Israel - they didn't know at the time what was going on even. Their celebrating for the first time seeing the prison walls coming down - if you've been trapped and born in one who wouldn't? It's the same way people equivocate Palestine protests as a protest for Hamas, and getting scared  'oh look how many terrorist supporters there are in our Western lands.' Too easy to conflate.

 

The law of distinction in warfare is completely getting overlooked in Israels actions. Special ops are there for a reason and aren't being used, instead bombardment of half of the little land Gazan's had left, in fact the only thing they had left as refugees were their homes, even that is taken away from them. And Israeli's think this is going to make them safer? These bombardments are barely getting to Hamas, their in the tunnels waiting it out for Israel to come in and be trapped. Small groups of IDF soldiers are going in. Yesterday members of the Knesset were crying at the losses they suffered already, and that's before a full invasion has even started. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by zazen

[Twentyfirst]

32 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

There were anti-Semitic riots in South America after Israel kidnapped a Nazi war criminal from Argentina, People are going to hate Jews no matter what, this is a very deep point. Anti-Semitism has always been the shadow of the Jews. That's the whole reason Israel cannot not exist. Even with all the terror and wars it is better that Jews have a country than be at the mercy of antisemitism in for example Russia. 

What about Anti-Arabism? 

[DawnC]

17 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Yes it is. That's exactly what you are doing. Comparing a value of human lives.

Don't reduce my point to the lowest level you can perceive it, wrap it with the most immoral quote you can come up with, and then attack me on it. Try to understand the core issue I'm trying to present and respond to that. If you seriously think that I am suggesting anything resembling Hamas, you really misunderstand my point.

Note that I didn't even say anything about the actual event. If you were to read my comments with an open mind, you'll see I made three major points:

1. It is simplistic to make numerical calculations based on a single scenario and then draw conclusions about the entire conflict.

2. Drawing a moral conclusion based solely on casualty numbers is overly simplistic.

3. The moral standard we put Israel to may be unrealistic during war.

 

 

[Something Funny]

16 minutes ago, zazen said:

From time stamp 3:23 on discusses this very predicament - if Hamas / terrorists were in Israel, would 80 civilian causalities be killed as collateral damage to target 1 terrorist

@DawnC answer this question.

[Something Funny]

10 minutes ago, DawnC said:

Don't reduce my point to the lowest level you can perceive it, wrap it with the most immoral quote you can come up with, and then attack me on it

You say that while you are the one coming up with imaginary, disingenious scenarios.

Like how you added that those 80 people are Hamas supporters.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Something Funny

[DawnC]

7 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

From time stamp 3:23 on discusses this very predicament - if Hamas / terrorists were in Israel, would 80 civilian causalities be killed as collateral damage to target 1 terrorist

@DawnC answer this question.

Clearly not. This was exactly my third point. Throughout world history, no country or military has been held to a standard where it would be considered immoral to prioritize their own casualties over those of the opponent. It's an unrealistic standard that no country in the world can meet, and none will in the foreseeable future. Are the Israelis less careful about civilian casualties than other countries? Perhaps, but even that is open to debate.

Edited November 2, 2023 by DawnC

[Something Funny]

7 minutes ago, DawnC said:

Clearly not. This was exactly my third point. Throughout world history, no country or military has been held to a standard where it would be considered immoral to prioritize their own casualties over those of the opponent. It's an unrealistic standard that no country in the world can meet, and none will in the foreseeable future. Are the Israelis less careful about civilian casualties than other countries? Perhaps, but even that is open to debate.

This is not an equal war. While Palestinians have bombs dropped on them, Israelis eat ice cream in a park.

Attacks on Israel are done using guerilla tactics by a terrorist organization

It was not an active combat situation with Israeli lives at stake, so it's not an unrealistic standard to expect Israel to be more considerate of civilian lives when conducting pre-planned, strategic strikes on specific individuals. 

Calling Palestinian deaths "casualities of an opponent" is fucked up in itself. They were refugees, in a refugee camp.

It is called a war crime.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Something Funny