New War In Israel / Gaza

[Happy Lizard]

@Lila9 I’m sorry for what your people have gone/are going through.

I can see the pain in your post and I recognize that.

If we don’t start doing this there is no hope for peace. My sincere condolences.

[Happy Lizard]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Many people don't make such distictions.

And I can say “many Russian like Putin”, I’ve no idea, it’s sorta like that.

But I love you man it’s aight.

[HMD]

@Lila9 I can empathize with you on that. And btw, according to mainstream Orthodox Judaism, the rebuilding of the Temple is generally left to the coming of the Jewish Messiah. 

Moreover, the Romans were the ones who demolished the Temples. I say leave the Muslims up to it and wait for the Messiah instead of fighting and killing children. 

[Nivsch]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This is a pleasant surprise.

Israel thinks that this drips of realising captives a little bit every time, is aiming to steal time and prevent Israel from getting its soldiers into gaza strip. A psychological torture hamas is trying to do.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Nivsch

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

This is what a sane and empathic Jewish/pro-Israeli perspective sounds like imo:

 

[Nivsch]

21 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But also, it seems Israel does not care about the hostages. They will not stop this war for those hostages. They want to wage their war and somehow magically save the hostages, which sounds ridiculous.

Personally I feel we cannot give up the hostages but we also cannot give up our goal to eliminate hamas.

without winning in this war, Israelis will stop feel secure in their country and will stop believe psychologically in their country in a very deep sense which is not less severe than the hostages problem.

Both goals have to be achieved somehow.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

34 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

we also cannot give up our goal to eliminate hamas.

The more I think about this whole war, the more it strikes me that the best course of action for Israel might simply be to not eliminate Hamas but just build better defenses against Gaza. It is not hard to defend against Hamas, and it is much more practical than invading Gaza. The Gaza invasion may badly backfire in the long-term.

I just don't see that invading Gaza will stop terror attacks. But it will cost thousands of Israeli lives. So what's the point? It's mostly just revenge at this point. But revenge is not a strategy and cannot be a root solution to anything.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

@Leo Gura The problem is that hamas proved it can invade through a cement wall and also easily skydive above it.

What you suggest can be possible, in my opinion, only if a great force of at least 1000 soldiers will sit 24/7 near the border. But more secure option is to establish a safe zone occupies by Israeli soldiers and maybe even international force, which will have some strategical depth of say 50-100 km that will ensure time to Israel to responde to every invasion of hamas which will require some invasion to gaza.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Nivsch

[Breakingthewall]

34 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The more I think about this whole war, the more it strikes me that the best course of action for Israel might simply be to not eliminate Hamas but just build better defenses against Gaza

Yes, this war is just a reaction because a strong reaction was necessary so that Israel does not collapse psychologically, but it is useless, an enormous cost in lives for a minimal result, in addition to uniting the world against Israel.

It is to play the game that Hamas wants. How can Israel end Hamas by invading Gaza? A hundred thousand or more would have to die to kill a few thousand militiamen, and many more equally radical groups would emerge as a consequence.

[HMD]

45 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

revenge is not a strategy and cannot be a root solution to anything.

But Israel as a collective will have resentment towards Hamas. They are in fear and want their leader to act and defend their sense of self by going on the offensive. Taking revenge on their behalf. If he doesn’t act then he runs the risk of becoming unpopular with Israelies.

This reminds me of Percles, how he detached himself from the public emotion and acted in a rational way with the bigger picture in mind. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by HMD

[Scholar]

47 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The more I think about this whole war, the more it strikes me that the best course of action for Israel might simply be to not eliminate Hamas but just build better defenses against Gaza. It is not hard to defend against Hamas, and it is much more practical than invading Gaza. The Gaza invasion may badly backfire in the long-term.

I just don't see that invading Gaza will stop terror attacks. But it will cost thousands of Israeli lives. So what's the point? It's mostly just revenge at this point. But revenge is not a strategy and cannot be a root solution to anything.

Imagine if the Mexican Cartel went over the US border and in a day killed 60.000 civilians, executing them in their home, livestreaming it, torturing them cartel style and so forth.

And then imagine the response of the president would be "Let's just build a bigger wall.". Even if this was feasable, you have to understand that this will not happen. If we cannot engage with some semblance of realism in this topic, we might as well be writing sci-fi novels instead of discussing politics.

 

And imagine what kind of sign that would send to the Cartel, and everyone else watching the issue. "Oh, we can just kill 60.000 civilians and the US will basically hide from us?".

[Leo Gura]

30 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Leo Gura The problem is that hamas proved it can invade through a cement wall and also easily skydive above it.

What you suggest can be possible, in my opinion, only if a great force of at least 1000 soldiers will sit 24/7 near the border.

There should already have been 10,000 troops patroling that boarder full time.

That was the key mistake here.

Israel can simply establish a DMZ like in North Korea. No one ever invades across that DMZ.

What is Israel doing with its army?? Israel has a huge army and a tiny country. Why don't they have at least 10,000 troops around Gaza?

Edited October 21, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Imagine if the Mexican Cartel went over the US border and in a day killed 60.000 civilians, executing them in their home, livestreaming it, torturing them cartel style and so forth.

And then imagine the response of the president would be "Let's just build a bigger wall.". Even if this was feasable, you have to understand that this will not happen. If we cannot engage with some semblance of realism in this topic, we might as well be writing sci-fi novels instead of discussing politics.

 

And imagine what kind of sign that would send to the Cartel, and everyone else watching the issue. "Oh, we can just kill 60.000 civilians and the US will basically hide from us?".

Don't strawman. There could still be targetted assassination of the Hamas leaders and fighters, and targetting of their infrastructure.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Scholar]

https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/comments/17cyhp0/these_people_are_tapped_in_the_head/

 

This is a good representation of a significant number, if not majority, of palestinian attutide. It's so easy to just deny anything that does not fit your narrative, especially if an entire portion of the political spectrum basically enables you in your hatred and bias.

Now, this will be true on both sides, but don't forget that you guys are enabling this. You are making the bias and hatred worse by enablings this type of mentality, and it will lead to more death and destruction, especially for palestinians.

 

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't strawman. There could still be targetted assassination of the Hamas leaders and fighters.

I don't know how realistic that is, and we both know no nationstate would just do some assassination after what happened. This isn't just a terrorist organization, it would be more like the Cartel became the elected government of Mexico, and then they did what I described.

This is war, and it will not stop until the other party has been destroyed.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Scholar

[Leo Gura]

But what does invading Mexico accomplish? It might feel good but in the end it doesn't solve the problem and costs more lives and makes all your neighbors hate you.

I feel like this thing will just turn into Iraq and Afghanistan 2.0

Just a giant waste of energy.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Scholar]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

But what does invading Mexico accomplish? It might feel good but in the end it doesn't solve the problem and costs more lives and makes all your neighbors hate you.

It accomplished the destruction of the current regime, which is the goal. After that you can try to establish an environment in which future wars are less likely. This has happened numerous times in history, just look at nazi germany and post-war germany.

 

Now, is this likely to occur? Probably not, but this will be the attempt, and like I said, we have to be realistic to some degree. No nation state will allow what happened and then not seek to destroy the entity which committed the act.

 

You can fantasize about what an enlightened, perfectly rational being with an enlightened, perfectly rational population might do to lead to the best outcome, but at least clarify you are engaging in science fiction.

[Nivsch]

36 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There should already have been 10,000 troops patroling that boarder full time.

That was the key mistake here.

Israel can simply establish a DMZ like in North Korea. No one ever invades across that DMZ.

What is Israel doing with its army?? Israel has a huge army and a tiny country. Why don't they have at least 10,000 troops around Gaza?

I am still concerned that after what happened, not demanding high price from hamas for decades / not eliminate him, will cause a psychological damage to the Israeli's sense of identity, unity and security and can have serious consequences on the strength of the israeli society. Sometimes you have to face your demon head on, also collectively. I try to see this revenge emotion as also intelligent and here for a reason, at least in my opinion, and i think we have to use this emotion smartly but to overlook it will be a mistake.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Nivsch

[Breakingthewall]

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

am still concerned that after what happened, not demanding high price from hamas / not eliminate him, will cause a psychological damage to the Israeli's sense of identity, unity and security and can have serious consequences on the strength of the israeli society.

So, since the Israeli government is absolutely incompetent, thousands of civilians have to die.

It is really amazing that knowing that Hamas is a terrorist group, and that because of that they have closed Gaza, they have it unguarded, closed with a simple fence and they hold massive raves nearby. what did they think? that it was all a joke? being so incompetent is criminal

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, HMD said:

@Lila9 I can empathize with you on that. And btw, according to mainstream Orthodox Judaism, the rebuilding of the Temple is generally left to the coming of the Jewish Messiah. 

Moreover, the Romans were the ones who demolished the Temples. I say leave the Muslims up to it and wait for the Messiah instead of fighting and killing children. 

Well we’re allegedly lucky because leo as the new messiah will rebuild the temple with his hands and it will be a nice temple and it will also surely be a good temple for everyone, there will be 5meo and cookies for everyone too 🌞 amen

 

[Scholar]

@Leo Gura

And to be clear, my layman opinion is also that a ground invasion probably will not lead to anything. I think a lot of people will die and it has a high chance to end in disaster for Israel and achieve basically nothing. I mean it will be akin to fighting the Hitler youth in Berlin's last stand, just terrible.

But I do see this as inevitable, and I am not sure what the proper action to take here would be.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Scholar