Where to get ethics from ?

[Someone here]

I just found a medium-sized  spider hanging out in my bathroom...the first thought that came to my mind is to kill it immediately..but idk..out of the blue something weird happened..it just hit me that killing it is evil ..why should I kill it ? Who am I to decide the end of a living creature's life? 

Then I started questioning stuff like eating meat and animal products. Beheading a goat or a chicken to ear from their flesh ..

The main point is that from where should I have my Morals? Who decides right and wrong ? Of course WE do . And of course we are biased to ourselves and we put our own survival above other animals' survival. 

The Religious people get their morality from their religion..from their holy books basically (and that's what made me interested in Islam because I needed a guidance in my life ..that's something I'm lacking..I need a sense of purpose..ethics and moral compass ).

But I'm asking where Do secular people get their Morals from ? How to decide what is ethical and what's not without adhering to a bearded old man in the sky who will fuck us in the ass in the afterlife If we fuck up (let me put it this way ?).

[Leo Gura]

You make it up.

[Someone here]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You make it up.

I thought so as well .

But isn't that gonna make morality subjective?  And therfore every fool get to set up his own biased Morals that serves his agenda? 

Isn't morality supposed to be objective and universal? 

[flowboy]

24 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Isn't morality supposed to be objective and universal? 

In my opinion no, that idea comes from times / developmental stages where people can't think further than "this is the way we do things, all the other tribes are doing it wrong". People in stage blue think their morality is the objective morality, because that's what fits with their stage. And we all have this wired in us, which is why, I think, philosophers try so hard, and fail, to define an objective morality. Which I think is a fool's errand.

 

24 minutes ago, Someone here said:

And therfore every fool get to set up his own biased Morals that serves his agenda? 

Yes, and they do. But if they get too crazy, they will be punished or revolted against by their people.

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You make it up.

Yes, but I wouldn't say entirely based on selfishness. People do have a baked in sense of what feels right and what feels wrong. The more trauma they have, the more that is overridden by selfish impulses. The more trauma they heal, the more they will be in touch with their true sense of right and wrong, which is still relative and unique to the person, and Leo would still say it is selfish, but it is based more on empathetic values.

And then yes, the mind will try to make up a coherent ruleset around it. But it will be an illusion.

People do what they do based on what they feel they need in the moment, or what they feel is right in the moment.

Edited September 27, 2023 by flowboy

[Someone here]

2 hours ago, flowboy said:

In my opinion no, that idea comes from times / developmental stages where people can't think further than "this is the way we do things, all the other tribes are doing it wrong". People in stage blue think their morality is the objective morality, because that's what fits with their stage. And we all have this wired in us, which is why, I think, philosophers try so hard, and fail, to define an objective morality. Which I think is a fool's errand

But how do you explain the innate sense of morality that we all have ? We all know deep down that stealing and raping and murdering is wrong ...from where do we have this instinctal sense of objective morality ? 

 

[Yimpa]

12 hours ago, Someone here said:

We all know deep down that stealing and raping and murdering is wrong ...

“It’s wrong if you do it to my tribe, but right if we do it to your tribe because you did it to my tribe first.” -Yimpa ;-)

Edited September 27, 2023 by Yimpa

[Someone here]

9 hours ago, Yimpa said:

“It’s wrong if you do it to my tribe, but right if we do it to your tribe because you did it to my tribe first.” 

Says who ?

[Yimpa]

29 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Says who ?

I made it up.

[Ajax]

On 9/26/2023 at 2:24 PM, Someone here said:

I just found a medium-sized  spider hanging out in my bathroom...the first thought that came to my mind is to kill it immediately..but idk..out of the blue something weird happened..it just hit me that killing it is evil ..why should I kill it ? Who am I to decide the end of a living creature's life? 

Then I started questioning stuff like eating meat and animal products. Beheading a goat or a chicken to ear from their flesh ..

The main point is that from where should I have my Morals? Who decides right and wrong ? Of course WE do . And of course we are biased to ourselves and we put our own survival above other animals' survival. 

The Religious people get their morality from their religion..from their holy books basically (and that's what made me interested in Islam because I needed a guidance in my life ..that's something I'm lacking..I need a sense of purpose..ethics and moral compass ).

But I'm asking where Do secular people get their Morals from ? How to decide what is ethical and what's not without adhering to a bearded old man in the sky who will fuck us in the ass in the afterlife If we fuck up (let me put it this way ?).

 

A basic problem in understanding something is having the right definition. So, it is important to separate ethics and morals.

 “Ability is best measured in results produced.”

A way of viewing this is your ability is best measured in whether it works or not.

As for morals. It was constructed by sets of agreements, through trial and error of what works and what doesn’t work. If it works well, it is right. If it doesn’t work well, it is wrong.

Through the eons of reinforcing what works for a society… what is produced is morals. What holds morals together is agreement. For a certain time/place in history or not. It is moral because society agrees that it is moral.

However, things change over time. People change. Agreements change. Morals change. They are rules of conduct. Values.

Problems arrive when things change many people no longer agree to past moral… they do not see how they work in today’s society. However, there are many people who strongly believe in the past agreements (morals).

Now for ethics. Ethics are personal. It is measured by the effects that you cause/create and the results you produce. It is about finding the best solution. The better the solution, the more ethical it is.

As for your spider example. It is ethical because you caused the effect of compassion toward a lifeform. You allowed it to live another day. It is also ethical if you kill the spider if it is a danger to you, or you just want to remove the pest and make sure it doesn’t come back.

Two different results? Which one is better for you?

If you are interested in practicing compassion and love for all life, I would say the first one. This option has a better result and better solution. So, it is more ethical.

Now, if you take on certain morals. For example, protecting climate change by not eating beef, and if you eat a burger. Well, you may feel like you violated your own personal values. Feeling guilty and hypocritical is not producing a good effect. So clearly, it would be unethical for you because it doesn’t result in an action that will work well for you. Inner conflict does not work well.

Ethics should be an evaluation of your actions or inactions, the quality of your solutions and the results (or effects) it will bring to you. Will it contribute or detract from your life, your values, your purpose and goals, your basic personality and identity. Yourself. Your family and friends. Your neighbors and social circles. Your country and race. Your fellow human beings. Your planet and even the spirituality of man.

It also includes application of that solution.

This way there is no dichotomy between ethical/unethical. Good/bad.  There are levels of ethics, and you have the freedom to choose how ethical your actions are.

I didn’t go into values, but it should be self-evident.

As for your question about how to choose. Not a problem. We can answer that.

Choose ONE value or conclusions or moral that will help you have real results. Results you want to produce. Focus on increasing your ability to apply that one value in everything you do.

I already told you one very important ability to have. I will repeat it for your convenience.

“Success is the sum of all validated improvements.”

This means that you should validate every single improvement in your life. When you eat a healthy meal… validate it. Tell yourself, “Well done for eating healthy”. Give yourself a dose of love and admiration for doing something well.  Do not focus one what you are doing wrong but reinforcing and acknowledging what you are doing right. What you are doing well.

You should have told yourself… “Well done for showing that little spider some compassion, well done me!” " Wow, wonderful! I got a chance to practice loving compassion on that little animal! well done!" That would be ethical LOL

Edited September 28, 2023 by Ajax

[Carl-Richard]

On 26.9.2023 at 10:24 PM, Someone here said:

But I'm asking where Do secular people get their Morals from ? How to decide what is ethical and what's not without adhering to a bearded old man in the sky who will fuck us in the ass in the afterlife If we fuck up (let me put it this way ?).

It's inbuilt. Think of there being an ethics module inside your mind. It competes with other modules. An ethical person is one who achieves a well-integrated functioning across the different modules, who is not unbalanced or stuck on just one of the modules. That often requires some work, and anything that promotes general functioning and health will lead you there.

[Schizophonia]

It's purely abstract and subjective.

 

[Yimpa]

12 hours ago, Ajax said:

“Success is the sum of all validated improvements.”

This means that you should validate every single improvement in your life. When you eat a healthy meal… validate it. Tell yourself, “Well done for eating healthy”. Give yourself a dose of love and admiration for doing something well.  Do not focus one what you are doing wrong but reinforcing and acknowledging what you are doing right. What you are doing well.

I didn’t eat ice cream last night, even though I was craving it… woohoo! (I’ve overindulged in it these past couple months, and my body finally said “Enough!!”)

[Yimpa]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

It's inbuilt. Think of there being an ethics module inside your mind. It competes with other modules. An ethical person is one who achieves a well-integrated functioning across the different modules, who is not unbalanced or stuck on just one of the modules. That often requires some work, and anything that promotes general functioning and health will lead you there.

Reminds me of building a flexible mindset. It’s challenging, but totally possible and rewarding. Yoga is a physical representation of flexibility, but there’s also an inner flexibility you can fine-tune with repeated practice. It reflects in your actions and state of mind.

A simple example: The route you always take while driving to work suddenly has a closed lane and you’re required to take a detour. Instead of being frustrated and blaming reality for screwing you over, you instead take it as an exciting opportunity to discover and learn something new! 

Keep in mind that you don’t need to depend on unexpected events to push you towards being flexible. You can also practice this intentionally in areas where you could do things the “right” or “preferred” way, but be open to trying it a different way anyway and see what happens.

[Leo Gura]

Your mind is capable of empathy and moral judgment. That's where your ethics come from.

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

I think experience is an important factor. A child won't have a solid set of morals and principles, it will simply mirror its environment. It takes time to develop your morals. It's important to expose yourself to experiences that lie outside of your frame of reference. You, for example, might not care about giving a homeless person on the street some change, but if you were to work in a soup kitchen for a month and talk to the homeless people there, you might get an entirely new perspective on homelessness, which might shift how you relate to these homeless people on the street.

Next time, just watch the spider for a bit (put it in a glass if you're scared of it). Marvel at the intelligence behind its every move. The intelligence behind its eight legs. The weird, mysterious and alien nature of its tiny body. They're literally like tiny aliens that you get to observe with your own eyes. They're fucking creepy, but they're also marvelous little creatures. A true work of art.

Seeing spiders from this angle won't guarantee a change in how you approach them (I still kill flies and mosquito, though the same logic applies to them), but it might. That's the point of going out there and experiencing life. It's to see for yourself. Maybe, one day, you'll have an awakening experience, where you realize how deeply interconnected you are with the reality around you. Looking at a spider from this state would change how you see spiders for the rest of your life. Looking at a spider and seeing yourself stare back at you is something that could blow up the whole paradigm of how you engage with the world around you. But again, it's not something that you can work out conceptually, you have to acess these kinds of experiences for yourself and see where it all leads you. 

[Ajax]

9 hours ago, Yimpa said:

I didn’t eat ice cream last night, even though I was craving it… woohoo! (I’ve overindulged in it these past couple months, and my body finally said “Enough!!”)

LMAO Well done!  And very well done for NOT choosing a shake this time! 

Have this instead. Not for your benefit... but for mine! So I can laugh at you!

 

GOD I HATE AVOCADOS! lmao

[Buck Edwards]

Either it's the human brain or the human conscience. Either way the source is human mostly.