Is there Salvation? If there is, what is it?

[KatiesKarma]

It is 3am right now and I remember vaguely reading an article of Leo on his blog mentioning 'Salvation'. I really cant remember exactly what it said

...

You can never truly escape suffering forever, right? So, what should I think? Do  I just accept this facts?

Is total surrender to everything always the answer, even when tortured, beheaded, raped, etc?

...

I am not really talking about Christian salvation from eternal hell in eternal paradise but you could draw some parallels. I am asking whether or not there is (permanent) Salvation from (unneccessary, pointless) suffering.

?

 

[vishnusavestheday]

Salvation might rightly be in how maturely one might grieve for their own life before their own passing. Contradictorily, it could also have to do with discovering real immortality.

 

I once thought that living this life alone, as an eternal recurrence, would be a fun possibility. Eternal recurrence seemed to be a fair hedge of my bets--neither Hell, Heaven, infinite void, or a new nirvana, just something always happening in the middle of everything.

 

Having thought about this unceasingly for many years now, I personally find it quite hellish now-- because one might drag their feet or count their steps forward-- albeit to a very Sisyphean degree. I've thought about how many vision quests I've pursued, or walkabouts I've already lived through. To think I'll have to do it again after a quick memory wipe seems like I've really gambled the wrong hand for a soul that I'd never want.

 

Maybe salvation has to do with never leaving that solemn face you see in the mirror everyday unattended from self-affection.

 

How much would there be of you that you'd want to remember about yourself after death, if it was up to you? How much would you be willing to forget entirely?

Edited August 19, 2023 by vishnusavestheday

[Osaid]

Yeah there is, it's called enlightenment or self-realization. Relatively speaking, it's a psychological switch that flips, then your direct experience is permanently recontextualized and you literally become unable to feel negative emotions ever again. (To clarify a bit more, you still feel physical symptoms, like your heart racing fast for example, or even physical pain, but this is recontextualized as a biological sensation which is neither negative or positive, just physically uncomfortable perhaps).

Edited August 19, 2023 by Osaid

[Princess Arabia]

You reduce your amount of suffering by stop thinking how to reduce your suffering. All the mind hears is suffering. Think about how to create more happiness. That's it. Stop living in your head. You are a creator and all we're creating is more suffering by thinking about suffering.

[KatiesKarma]

@vishnusavestheday If you just forget everything about yourself we cannot really call it reincarnation, its an endless experience of living for the first time. I would be willing to forget absolutely everything I have learned in this life because this knowledge is so deep and true that in the next life, I would simply find it again. God cannot escape itself.

 

Maybe it really just is a very deep level of surrender and self-acceptance i.e. love

[KatiesKarma]

8 hours ago, Osaid said:

Yeah there is, it's called enlightenment or self-realization. Relatively speaking, it's a psychological switch that flips, then your direct experience is permanently recontextualized and you literally become unable to feel negative emotions ever again. (To clarify a bit more, you still feel physical symptoms, like your heart racing fast for example, or even physical pain, but this is recontextualized as a biological sensation which is neither negative or positive, just physically uncomfortable perhaps).

Do you experience this? Would one want to go back to being unconscious maybe at some point?

[KatiesKarma]

7 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

You reduce your amount of suffering by stop thinking how to reduce your suffering. All the mind hears is suffering. Think about how to create more happiness. That's it. Stop living in your head. You are a creator and all we're creating is more suffering by thinking about suffering.

Okay.

[Breakingthewall]

9 hours ago, KatiesKarma said:

You can never truly escape suffering forever, right? So, what should I think? Do  I just accept this facts?

to get out of suffering you have to realize your true nature, which is absolute, and that your experience is relative. suffering always exists, it is a mechanism that keeps the experience active, but if you realize that it is relative, you suffer, but relatively. the difference is drastic

[KatiesKarma]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

to get out of suffering you have to realize your true nature, which is absolute, and that your experience is relative. suffering always exists, it is a mechanism that keeps the experience active, but if you realize that it is relative, you suffer, but relatively. the difference is drastic

So I will always suffer in a relative manner due to the nature of relativity and experience but never in an Absolute fashion?

[Breakingthewall]

8 minutes ago, KatiesKarma said:

So I will always suffer in a relative manner due to the nature of relativity and experience but never in an Absolute fashion?

Yeah, but if you realize the absolute, of what you are, you realize that suffering is relative and it slips away. then it can be said that there is no more suffering. there is only suffering if you identify with the relative, which is the experience, if you identify with the absolute, there is no suffering. but of course, for that you first have to realize the absolute. 

[Someone here]

13 hours ago, KatiesKarma said:

You can never truly escape suffering forever, right? So, what should I think? Do  I just accept this facts?

Is total surrender to everything always the answer, even when tortured, beheaded, raped, etc?

There is a difference between suffering and pain .

Pain is physical. Suffering is psychological.  Pain can never be transcended. Suffering can.

How ?

Mostly awakening is the only way .no other way around it . 

You have to realize that God's love is the ultimate metric in existence. So love will inevitably win .

[Osaid]

7 hours ago, KatiesKarma said:

Do you experience this?

Yes, I achieved ACTUAL enlightenment 4 days ago.

7 hours ago, KatiesKarma said:

Would one want to go back to being unconscious maybe at some point?

This is a good question. Not really. Actually, you can't and you don't want to. Because you recognize the previous state as useless and delusional. But, even beyond that, you see that there is nothing to really go back to.

If you are in the middle of reaching enlightenment, you might have some thought like "Oh, it kind of feels weird. Can I go back?" But, this is not enlightenment. Close to it, maybe. But not it. Before enlightenment, there are "degrees." You might untangle SOME thoughts. You might improve your mental health SOMEWHAT. Enlightenment is like the peak of all of this "mental improvement", and it's like a switch that permanently flips inside your head that just permanently removes any mental illness forever. It's the end of fearing thoughts, FOREVER. You couldn't fear it even if you wanted to. It's like looking at a picture of Spongebob and trying to convince yourself "Be scared!" It just doesn't work. It is a single recontextualization, which permanently neutralizes all thoughts and unnecessary suffering, by virtue of the recontextualization.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Osaid

[Water by the River]

 

17 hours ago, KatiesKarma said:

even when tortured, beheaded, raped, etc

I like Snoopys perspective on these not so happy transitionings from this life to the next:

... and the end of suffering is possible, as stated by every spiritual tradition since millenia. Thousands of Realizers over the centuries stating that. 

And the recipe is transcending the illusion of the separate self-contraction, becoming the Nondual Totality/Reality, and then finding out what is aware of all of that... or the real You, Reality itself.

And before talking about  keeping that final Realization while being nailed at the cross, it is a good start maintaining some Awakening during everday life.

There have been prominent cases who have had challenges with staying in the awakened perspective during these unfortunate transitions (Jesus on the cross “My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me"). But since the Real Nature of every being has no moving parts or anything else objective/material that could be "damaged", apparently "IT" didn't get damaged while suffering that procedure. Or any other of the lovely mishaps you mention. But Nightmares are possible in the dream for sure.

IT never changes, because it is empty pure Impersonal Awareness itself without any core, mechanism or objective/material anything. And it is also all of manifested/imagined Reality in a nondual way.

Worst case you can have is a nightmare. Although a veery realistic one. That is why Karma is so important: Its all a dream, but one can have a nightmare, and Karma works with mathematical precission.

So, anyways, just take up some hopefully efficient practice and see for yourself concerning the topic of the end of suffering.

Selling Water by the River

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Water by the River

[BipolarGrowth]

I’d like to introduce you to the foundational concept/“doctrine”/dhamma of Buddhism which distinguishes it from essentially all other forms of spirituality. This is the concept of dukkha (suffering, stress, dissatisfaction) and dukkha nirodha (the cessation, or end, of suffering, stress, dissatisfaction). This is by far the primary focus, teaching, and practice of Buddhism. You will find this simplified way of explaining the aim of Buddhism in a bit more complexity when looking at “The Four Noble Truths” which is also seen as a foundational aspect of Buddhism. 
 

I will use my own words for simplicity’s sake, but you can research the four noble truths in more depth on your own. 
 

1. There is dukkha in existence/experience/life. 
2. There is a cause for dukkha. This cause is a combination of clinging to what we think we truly want which will make us feel better AKA stop feeling dukkha in the moment, being aversive to what we do not want AKA what we believe causes dukkha for us, and the ignorance  (avijjā) or lack of wisdom paññā AKA perception of a stable, real “self” which can be threatened or which must find peace for itself, failing to understand the nature of dukkha, and failing to see the transient nature of both pleasure and pain (anicca — impermanence). 
3. There is a real and obtainable end to dukkha. There is a real and obtainable end to suffering which at least thousands of human beings have already realized. 
4. There is a path to become a human being who has realized the end of suffering in their own life. There is a clear path, method, guide manual, and practice to ending suffering. This can be seen, at least in part, to be The Noble Eightfold Path which are eight steps or necessary requirements which acting in unison lead to the complete end of suffering if they are developed to the necessary degree. 
 

Hinduism talks about Liberation, and in many ways Liberation in Hinduism also means an ending of suffering. You can think of Buddhism as a later evolution of Hinduism which focuses primarily on this goal whereas Hinduism has a bit of a different approach and less clear or emphasized end goal when it relates to suffering. 
 

The whole idea of what it means to be fully awakened, or an Arahant, in the models of Theravada Buddhism (the original school based directly on the teachings of Guatama Buddha) is that you have freed yourself from the grips of suffering. The first important step is to see that this is an actually obtainable goal for us. You will likely not believe that this is possible whether consciously or in more hidden parts of your psyche until you reach an experience which clearly convinces you of this possibility being a reality for yourself. That moment is adequately called “stream entry” or the moment one has entered the stream which carries one to full awakening in the definition of the Theravada model. This is also the moment it is literally impossible to doubt the efficacy of the Buddha and the teachings he gave on eliminating suffering.

Ending suffering is different from ending pain. Ending pain is not the goal of Buddhism. Pain is a reality of embodied life. Suffering is the amplification of pain into a much worse thing to bear. Suffering is mentally-created dissatisfaction and a lack of accepting the experience you are having. This can be eradicated.
 

Freedom from suffering is in part about non-resistance, but true non-resistance has very little to do with allowing rape, allowing injustice, or perpetuating pain through a lack of action. True non-resistance is dissolving the false view of an actual self as an entity and arriving at the point in which you turn from a person who is alive to life itself. The human experience has built in preferences and in turn preferred modes of action. A lot of that is about reducing pain and increasing pleasure. There’s nothing at all wrong with that. The issue comes when you create a false view of an individual who can fight against LIFE IN THIS MOMENT AS IT WISHES TO BE EXPRESSED. 
 

Stop fighting, and allow life to live as it lives. There’s a hell of a journey in front of you to get there in a consistently experienced sense, but you will thank yourself immensely once that journey has been completed. 

[The0Self]

Yes. Flip the script. Seek strength and integrity rather than pleasure. Simple. Difficult, but solid. In other words, fully authenticate.

[Osaid]

7 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

I’d like to introduce you to the foundational concept/“doctrine”/dhamma of Buddhism which distinguishes it from essentially all other forms of spirituality. This is the concept of dukkha (suffering, stress, dissatisfaction) and dukkha nirodha (the cessation, or end, of suffering, stress, dissatisfaction). This is by far the primary focus, teaching, and practice of Buddhism. You will find this simplified way of explaining the aim of Buddhism in a bit more complexity when looking at “The Four Noble Truths” which is also seen as a foundational aspect of Buddhism. 
 

I will use my own words for simplicity’s sake, but you can research the four noble truths in more depth on your own. 
 

1. There is dukkha in existence/experience/life. 
2. There is a cause for dukkha. This cause is a combination of clinging to what we think we truly want which will make us feel better AKA stop feeling dukkha in the moment, being aversive to what we do not want AKA what we believe causes dukkha for us, and the ignorance  (avijjā) or lack of wisdom paññā AKA perception of a stable, real “self” which can be threatened or which must find peace for itself, failing to understand the nature of dukkha, and failing to see the transient nature of both pleasure and pain (anicca — impermanence). 
3. There is a real and obtainable end to dukkha. There is a real and obtainable end to suffering which at least thousands of human beings have already realized. 
4. There is a path to become a human being who has realized the end of suffering in their own life. There is a clear path, method, guide manual, and practice to ending suffering. This can be seen, at least in part, to be The Noble Eightfold Path which are eight steps or necessary requirements which acting in unison lead to the complete end of suffering if they are developed to the necessary degree. 
 

Hinduism talks about Liberation, and in many ways Liberation in Hinduism also means an ending of suffering. You can think of Buddhism as a later evolution of Hinduism which focuses primarily on this goal whereas Hinduism has a bit of a different approach and less clear or emphasized end goal when it relates to suffering. 
 

The whole idea of what it means to be fully awakened, or an Arahant, in the models of Theravada Buddhism (the original school based directly on the teachings of Guatama Buddha) is that you have freed yourself from the grips of suffering. The first important step is to see that this is an actually obtainable goal for us. You will likely not believe that this is possible whether consciously or in more hidden parts of your psyche until you reach an experience which clearly convinces you of this possibility being a reality for yourself. That moment is adequately called “stream entry” or the moment one has entered the stream which carries one to full awakening in the definition of the Theravada model. This is also the moment it is literally impossible to doubt the efficacy of the Buddha and the teachings he gave on eliminating suffering.

Ending suffering is different from ending pain. Ending pain is not the goal of Buddhism. Pain is a reality of embodied life. Suffering is the amplification of pain into a much worse thing to bear. Suffering is mentally-created dissatisfaction and a lack of accepting the experience you are having. This can be eradicated.
 

Freedom from suffering is in part about non-resistance, but true non-resistance has very little to do with allowing rape, allowing injustice, or perpetuating pain through a lack of action. True non-resistance is dissolving the false view of an actual self as an entity and arriving at the point in which you turn from a person who is alive to life itself. The human experience has built in preferences and in turn preferred modes of action. A lot of that is about reducing pain and increasing pleasure. There’s nothing at all wrong with that. The issue comes when you create a false view of an individual who can fight against LIFE IN THIS MOMENT AS IT WISHES TO BE EXPRESSED. 
 

Stop fighting, and allow life to live as it lives. There’s a hell of a journey in front of you to get there in a consistently experienced sense, but you will thank yourself immensely once that journey has been completed. 

?

Doesn't HAVE to be through Buddhism. But yeah this is 100% accurate. Any method that works will work. Buddhism is one of them. It's just a singular phenomenon that occurs that is always the same thing across all of history.

Also love the signature hahahahaha

Edited August 19, 2023 by Osaid

[BipolarGrowth]

4 minutes ago, Osaid said:

?

Doesn't HAVE to be through Buddhism. But yeah this is 100% accurate. Any method that works will work. Buddhism is one of them. It's just a singular phenomenon that occurs that is always the same thing across all of history.

Also love the signature hahahahaha

I’ve used at least a dozen different spiritual systems quite throughly over the years. All of them have been integral to finding a point of resolving my relationship to suffering to the degree I have. The reason I bring up Buddhism specifically is only because the focus of the whole system is ending suffering. All spiritual development on any legitimate path will end some suffering. It’s the difference between going to a general family doctor to resolve a health issue versus going to a doctor who specializes in treating your specific issue. If your issue is suffering, the specialist I recommend is the Buddhist path. If you want the most transcendent and juicy temporary experiences, following something more akin to Leo’s path and teachings would probably work better. It all depends on the goal. The question of this thread was suffering though ?

[Osaid]

29 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

I’ve used at least a dozen different spiritual systems quite throughly over the years. All of them have been integral to finding a point of resolving my relationship to suffering to the degree I have. The reason I bring up Buddhism specifically is only because the focus of the whole system is ending suffering. All spiritual development on any legitimate path will end some suffering. It’s the difference between going to a general family doctor to resolve a health issue versus going to a doctor who specializes in treating your specific issue. If your issue is suffering, the specialist I recommend is the Buddhist path. If you want the most transcendent and juicy temporary experiences, following something more akin to Leo’s path and teachings would probably work better. It all depends on the goal. The question of this thread was suffering though ?

This is an interesting contention which I have sort of been contemplating.

Although the removal of suffering is a great achievement, I find it to be more of a "side-effect" of just perfect clarity of perception.

I also find that people who skip this "removal of suffering" or "enlightenment" tend to be very confused in their spiritual journey, lost and worrying about all sorts of stories. So, for me, it's kind of a must now.

They will kind of strawman it and say "Oh, but truth isn't about reducing suffering! That's just some relative human ideal! So, I don't need to reach whatever state these guys are talking about, I'll just explore my metaphysics over here, despite all my pain and suffering." But the reason this is a strawman is because that removal of suffering is just a SIDE EFFECT of perfect clarity of perception. Clarity of perception is EQUAL to lack of suffering. So, in other words, what this strawman is really saying is: "Oh, truth isn't about perceiving clearly!", which is wrong.

But, yes, all the juicy metaphysics are great and I love them. But, when they come from someone who is not enlightened, there's a lot of human baggage to scrub through, and it can confuse people or be harmful.

What I'm saying is that it's not just about removing suffering, but like your view of reality will just be completely inaccurate all the time unless you reach it. So, this is more important than just suffering, I think. Your lack of enlightenment will bleed into your journey of exploring metaphysics, or literally anything you do in life.

Although, psychedelics CAN force you into temporary states of enlightenment. But, you can't really bring it back, because you become an unenlightened human again. The human that comes back just has to operate off the memory of it, then it gets slightly corrupted or whatever. Which is still massively useful, obviously, because what you remember was still pretty damn important and amazing. But finding that clarity for yourself is still way better and more important, because you don't have to operate off of memory, and so it skims off any potential delusions that can generate from memory.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Osaid

[How to be wise]

6 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

I’ve used at least a dozen different spiritual systems quite throughly over the years. All of them have been integral to finding a point of resolving my relationship to suffering to the degree I have. The reason I bring up Buddhism specifically is only because the focus of the whole system is ending suffering. All spiritual development on any legitimate path will end some suffering. It’s the difference between going to a general family doctor to resolve a health issue versus going to a doctor who specializes in treating your specific issue. If your issue is suffering, the specialist I recommend is the Buddhist path. If you want the most transcendent and juicy temporary experiences, following something more akin to Leo’s path and teachings would probably work better. It all depends on the goal. The question of this thread was suffering though ?

I agree that Buddhism is superior to other religions, in terms of higher consciousness. There’s no need to pretend that all religions are equal: they’re not. 

[Breakingthewall]

10 hours ago, Osaid said:

What I'm saying is that it's not just about removing suffering, but like your view of reality will just be completely inaccurate all the time unless you reach it.

Yeah, As you have said before, complete clarity brings with it the disappearance of suffering, since this is confusion and attachment. 

10 hours ago, Osaid said:

Although, psychedelics CAN force you into temporary states of enlightenment. But, you can't really bring it back, because you become an unenlightened human again

Here is the problem, and as we have already seen. operate from memory is a mistake. we have to avoid doing it if we want to move forward. The most obvious mistake possible is to have a clarity experience with psychedelics and then conceptualize it and arrive at conceptual premises that you call "the truth". This is so basic that it shouldn't be necessary to mention it, and yet...