The riots in France

[MarkKol]

This is insane 

 https://www.instagram.com/p/CuK-mdDtgk6/?igshid=Y2I2MzMwZWM3ZA==

[max duewel]

It's important to understand the the causes of the riots date way back to the industrial times of france. Back then France got a lot of Maroccan, Tunisian and Algerian immigrants to work in factories. They built ghettos for them in Paris. Over time most of the people living there got replaced by machines and fell in their social class. Back then the France government was not dealing with that problem and the gap in education and income widened. Those ghettos developed over time their own laws and police only rarely came in and if, then with a lot of men. Under the last president the police was instructed to deal more strict with them and a big tension between the people living their and the police grew. The riots are most of all an eruption of tension that build up over decades not some dumb ungrateful immigrants running a rampage.

[Epikur]

7 hours ago, Philipp said:

In the long run it is usually better to be open and diverse. it forces you to base your identity not around superficial aspects such as skin color, but around deeper human values. It allows you to expand your identity and play a more uniting role in the world.  

In the meantime:
 

 

[Vrubel]

Countries like Canada, Australia and to a large degree USA get immigration right. Europe kinda dropped the ball on it. Most notably France and Sweden. But I guess it's also a byproduct of creating very pleasant liberal societies and in the case of France also colonialism. 

[Epikur]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Countries like Canada, Australia and to a large degree USA get immigration right. Europe kinda dropped the ball on it. Most notably France and Sweden. But I guess it's also a byproduct of creating very pleasant liberal societies and in the case of France also colonialism. 

When the muslim percentage goes over 10% things become shakey it seems.

[Vrubel]

5 hours ago, max duewel said:

It's important to understand the the causes of the riots date way back to the industrial times of france. Back then France got a lot of Maroccan, Tunisian and Algerian immigrants to work in factories. They built ghettos for them in Paris. Over time most of the people living there got replaced by machines and fell in their social class. Back then the France government was not dealing with that problem and the gap in education and income widened. Those ghettos developed over time their own laws and police only rarely came in and if, then with a lot of men. Under the last president the police was instructed to deal more strict with them and a big tension between the people living their and the police grew. The riots are most of all an eruption of tension that build up over decades not some dumb ungrateful immigrants running a rampage.

I keep hearing "they put them in Ghetto's". But It's actually perfectly comfortable social accommodation. It's actually decently well-kept most of the time. The countries they originate, over there they have some real fucking ghettos. Have you ever been to an African city? 

Some basic gratitude, loyalty, appreciation and respect for your host country is an order, without it, you really are a "dumb ungrateful immigrant running a rampage".  

I have generally a very positive view on migration but what I see here is a total lack of basic human decency.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Vrubel

[max duewel]

3 hours ago, Vrubel said:

I keep hearing "they put them in Ghetto's". But It's actually perfectly comfortable social accommodation. It's actually decently well-kept most of the time. The countries they originate, over there they have some real fucking ghettos. Have you ever been to an African city? 

Some basic gratitude, loyalty, appreciation and respect for your host country is an order, without it, you really are a "dumb ungrateful immigrant running a rampage".  

I have generally a very positive view on migration but what I see here is a total lack of basic human decency.

 

I agree with that some gratitude, appreciation, and respect for any country you live in is a great prescription for anybody and I don't agree with the behavior of the rioters. If migration is good or bad is relative to the situation of a country obviously. 

However, some basic gratitude and human decency from the French people and politicians would have also been fair instead of dropping everybody like hot potatoes after they were not of any immediate use to the economy. Most of the young rioters are third generation and are legally french citizens and speak French as their mother tongue. Still, they were treated like humans of the second class for all their lives, faced discrimination by the police and insults and neglect for decades by French politicians. The neighborhoods were therefore also a great breeding ground for radical Islamic ideology and not only social economic and social class differences grow but also religious separation grew. I'm not trying to blame France for the riots, I'm merely providing perspective from the rioters because I see that lacking in the thread. 

 

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, max duewel said:

Most of the young rioters are third generation and are legally french citizens and speak French as their mother tongue. Still, they were treated like humans of the second class for all their lives, faced discrimination by the police and insults and neglect for decades by French politicians. The neighborhoods were therefore also a great breeding ground for radical Islamic ideology and not only social economic and social class differences grow but also religious separation grew.

The fact that the generations-after separate themself from French culture and society makes it even worse. A big part of the problem is that they cling to Islam and the worldview of their home country which is anti-western (values). Islam is a big corrupting force when it comes to immigrants. Non-Islamic immigrants don't get so bitter and violent.

 

[Ima Freeman]

A lot of frustration must be in these people of migration-backround. Otherwise they would not be so extremely violent. This violence happens in Germany, Sweden, Netherlands to and clearly originates from african and middle eastern migrants/migration-backround people.

I remember a very similar kind of violence in England in 2011. 
Or the BLM riots in the USA.

In all of the cases someone of a ethnic minority is killed by police and then violence erupts.  

[Epikur]

48 minutes ago, Ima Freeman said:

A lot of frustration must be in these people of migration-backround. Otherwise they would not be so extremely violent. This violence happens in Germany, Sweden, Netherlands to and clearly originates from african and middle eastern migrants/migration-backround people.

I remember a very similar kind of violence in England in 2011. 
Or the BLM riots in the USA.

In all of the cases someone of a ethnic minority is killed by police and then violence erupts.  

It is a bit like this forum. Most people can not handle this forum so they get kicked out. The expected standards are quite high in Western countries. Hard to deal with it. Add Islam into the mix things get nasty.

[PurpleTree]

14 hours ago, Ima Freeman said:

A lot of frustration must be in these people of migration-backround. Otherwise they would not be so extremely violent. This violence happens in Germany, Sweden, Netherlands to and clearly originates from african and middle eastern migrants/migration-backround people.

I remember a very similar kind of violence in England in 2011. 
Or the BLM riots in the USA.

In all of the cases someone of a ethnic minority is killed by police and then violence erupts.  

Well it doesn‘t really happen with immigrants from vietnam, india, sri lanka, china, poland etc etc

but i guess the numbers are also much higher etc

Edited July 8, 2023 by PurpleTree

[Ima Freeman]

9 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

Well it doesn‘t really happen with immigrants from vietnam, india, sri lanka, china, poland etc etc

but i guess the numbers are also much higher etc

You're right. All these countries are more developed, industrially and/or intellectually.

[rnd]

Why "riots"?  Because it's Europe?

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2023 by rnd

[Basman]

On 7/4/2023 at 7:17 PM, Vrubel said:

The fact that the generations-after separate themself from French culture and society makes it even worse. A big part of the problem is that they cling to Islam and the worldview of their home country which is anti-western (values). Islam is a big corrupting force when it comes to immigrants. Non-Islamic immigrants don't get so bitter and violent.

 

You can't really blame them though if they are seemingly not given the opportunity to accultarate and are seen as outsiders despite being born in France. Radicalism as a consequence then is due to a lack of percieved opportunity and relief from tension. This whole mess seems to be the result of neglect spanning decades. 

Whether or not Islam is incompatible with western values, I think it depends. Extremism and cult-like groups of any kind can be antithetical to democracy.