Anima Issue in Men - Marie Louise Von Franz

[NoSelfSelf]

@Emerald When i was writing i was thinking the opposite, that feminine is looking outwards and masculine is looking inwards for the answers.Like looking outwards helps you to be more attuned to the emotions and enviroment(me seeing as feminine) while looking yourself and only yourself (masculine)....

Yeah i know what you mean i know some guys that are like that and i adviced them to be more attuned to their emotions because they come across as robotic,but that are extreme cases.

@Swarnim seems it being adressed about the group of men that are supressing feminity completely i was more looking for being conditioned to be feminine by mother/society which is mayority of the population now didnt look from that side...

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by NoSelfSelf

[Gesundheit2]

This thread is a good example on how your worldview warps your perception.

If you believe women are oppressed, you will think that the problem with men is the general lack of femininity. If you believe in the red pill and that kind of stuff, you will think that the problem is the lack of masculinity. I personally believe in fruit, so obviously the problem is the lack of vegetables. Although, there is a chance we are all saying the same thing in different lingos.

[mr_engineer]

13 hours ago, Emerald said:

A big part of it is to drop resistance to the Feminine principle in general.

This is a subtractive process… not an additive process. The idea is not to make yourself be Feminine but to allow what is already there by dropping resistance to and finding reverence for the Feminine principle in all people and things.

This would include qualities like vulnerability, emotionality, receptivity, surrender, non-linearity, and the non-rational.

And to be willing to see these qualities in yourself and to allow the world to see them too.

This includes developing a relationship to the depths of the Unconscious mind.

And this also means not holding on so tightly to the identity of Masculinity… even though counterintuitively this will allow you to be more in touch with the deep unpretended Masculine.

This is also a subtractive process.

So, that means not being so attached and identified with things like strength, invulnerability, unyieldingness, and rationality and allowing yourself to experience the opposite in yourself with full acceptance.

And a big part of the Feminine is internality in contrast to Masculine externality. 

So to integrate the Feminine is to make decisions from the inside… not the outside.

You consult your personal sovereignty and intuition to make decisions, and you don’t outsource the decision making process to the external world of rules, authority figures, shoulda, and should nots.

In case you missed it last time - how does this solve men's problems in relation to dating, sex and relationships? 

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, spiritual memes said:

@Emerald do you think masculine and feminine are mutually exclusive? I.e. integrating feminine makes you less masculine?

No, they work off of one and amplify each other.

It’s like an infinity symbol and you have to make it all the way through the circuit to develop yourself as a person. And one side is Masculine and the other side is Feminine.

There are certain Masculine qualities that can’t be tapped and developed unless the Feminine is integrated. And vice versa.

[spiritual memes]

14 minutes ago, Emerald said:

No, they work off of one and amplify each other.

It’s like an infinity symbol and you have to make it all the way through the circuit to develop yourself as a person. And one side is Masculine and the other side is Feminine.

There are certain Masculine qualities that can’t be tapped and developed unless the Feminine is integrated. And vice versa.

That's kind of what I thought as well and feels right. But I see men like Joe Rogan, Andrew Tate, David Goggins, most UFC fighters who almost certainly repress their feminine and yet manage to be extremely masculine. Surely these men should be less masculine if the circuit is incomplete? 

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

This thread is a good example on how your worldview warps your perception.

If you believe women are oppressed, you will think that the problem with men is the general lack of femininity. If you believe in the red pill and that kind of stuff, you will think that the problem is the lack of masculinity. I personally believe in fruit, so obviously the problem is the lack of vegetables. Although, there is a chance we are all saying the same thing in different lingos.

What about the meta-worldview of holism? You need to integrate all sides and become whole  

Edited March 3, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

18 hours ago, Emerald said:

You consult your personal sovereignty and intuition to make decisions, and you don’t outsource the decision making process to the external world of rules, authority figures, shoulda, and should nots.

Mmm, Fi and Te 

[Ulax]

6 hours ago, spiritual memes said:

On the other hand the masculine is overemphasized and glorified to excess. There is a wave of hypermasculine influencers who repress their feminine that have become really popular lately. For example Andrew Tate. The general message to young men is: 'be an alpha male, never show any weakness or emotion or you are a loser' which leads to a lot of problems. Not really sure what the solution is.

@spiritual memes I'd disagree with this.

My belief is that in my society celebrates the hypermasculinity of a certain class of men. I.e. men who are hyper masculine by about 16 years of age.

And if you don't make it by that time, society sort of condemns guys embracing the hyper masculine edge. Id point to how much pushback doing pickup gets.

Toxic masculinity isn't the same as hypermasculinity to me. 'Act like an alpha male' is hypermasculinity. 'You are a little bitch if you don't' is toxic masculinity to me. Being able to be like an alpha male has a lot of value to it in my opinion. 

6 hours ago, spiritual memes said:

 Feminine men are called weak submissive 'betas' which terrifies any man from expressing any femininity. 

I also disagree with this. In previous times, when I've been in a really great period of growth from hyper masculine stuff, i.e. achieving big goals, becoming a champion sportsmen, and doing cold approach pick up, I've felt much more comfortable opening up about my feminine side. 'Macho guys' just seemed like a joke to me. Like they weren't even masculine or feminine, just kind of strange.

And also i think its a pretty black & white statement to say 'feminine men are called weak submissive betas'. I'd say plenty of men do act that way but a  fair amount of guys are pretty understanding. And I think it depends what sub-culture of men you are thinking of, i.e. working class men in east London, or upper-middle class seniors at Cambridge university.

Returning to my personal experiences, I'd say I felt more comfort I was assured enough in my masculinity that I felt minimal threat in being perceived as more feminine. So, I know at a point in my life I was relatively comfortable expressing feminity. I even had a depression party at my university bar lol.

That said, I think unless you experience the social freedom that comes with doing fun cold approach pick up, its hard to understand that level of social freedom/ confidence is actually possible. And its that freedom/ confidence that i think allowed me to be more chill with the feminity in me.

But I'm aware learning fun cold approach pick up is very abnormal. So, I think it says a lot that that is what it took for me to feel relatively chill about my more feminine sides. And, when I'm not doing it I feel much more restricted in expressing feminity. Also, in my adolescence, I had a internet mentor in Owen cook who i could relate to as both a masculine guy and also someone who spoke about his deep emotions and suffering. Not that there weren't repressant aspects to his teachings too.

[Gesundheit2]

46 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

What about the meta-worldview of holism? You need to integrate all sides and become whole  

Well, at least this one isn't very abstract. I mean you could probably easily get a very solid and accurate sense of what holism might mean in any given scenario. On the most basic level, it means try to understand and let go of resistance to the opposite perspective.

That's not the case with the masculine and feminine dichotomy, especially if you're not very familiar with the metaphysical connotations and their reflections in Jungian psychology. These terms are ripe for projection and misunderstanding, and they can easily confuse the layman, especially when they're used in politics as gender war talking points.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Gesundheit2

[Ulax]

20 hours ago, Emerald said:

Quick snippet of a Jungian video.

I post this because it is the true root cause of many of the woes that men express in relation to dating, sex, and relationships.

They’re all textbook Anima issues.

The Anima is what Jung called the Inner woman in every man… while women have an Animus

And if you resolve this Anima issue, interactions with women will become easier and you’ll have more security about your own masculinity.

The video is of Marie Louise Von Franz (a popular Jungian) talking about an issue of stunted Anima integration in men that she witnessed in her career as a Jungian therapist.

Anima possession comes up as a result of men repressing, denying, and having shame toward their Feminine side.

And the harder he resists, the tighter the Anima holds onto him and posses him. And the more the possessive Anima is projected outward onto women… making talking to women terrifying and triggering.

@Emerald Then you have the issue of why more men aren't doing Jungian therapy if it would solve so many of their problems. If inner work is so crucial why aren't more men doing it? I believe it is massively crucial but its also important to understand where different demographics of men are at in terms of their ability to even grasp the importance of it. 

[spiritual memes]

58 minutes ago, Ulax said:

My belief is that in my society celebrates the hypermasculinity of a certain class of men. I.e. men who are hyper masculine by about 16 years of age.

And if you don't make it by that time, society sort of condemns guys embracing the hyper masculine edge. Id point to how much pushback doing pickup gets.

This is because society condemns guys who are not masculine  trying to be more masculine than they really are. Also pickup is generally frowned upon not because of masculinity but because of the way in which the pickup community addresses girls. 

1 hour ago, Ulax said:

Toxic masculinity isn't the same as hypermasculinity to me. 'Act like an alpha male' is hypermasculinity. 'You are a little bitch if you don't' is toxic masculinity to me. Being able to be like an alpha male has a lot of value to it in my opinion. 

7 hours ago, spiritual memes said:

These two almost always go hand in hand. If anyone says the former, they almost certainly believe the latter. Connecting with your authentic masculine side is valuable, but most people don't have the authentic part and try to act masculine because they think alpha=better beta=worse.

1 hour ago, Ulax said:

I also disagree with this. In previous times, when I've been in a really great period of growth from hyper masculine stuff, i.e. achieving big goals, becoming a champion sportsmen, and doing cold approach pick up, I've felt much more comfortable opening up about my feminine side. 'Macho guys' just seemed like a joke to me. Like they weren't even masculine or feminine, just kind of strange.

That may be true but what happened when you were succeding at life and were therefore more secure about yourself. What about when life wasn't going well for you? I would assume you were probably less comfortable about your feminine side.

1 hour ago, Ulax said:

And also i think its a pretty black & white statement to say 'feminine men are called weak submissive betas'. I'd say plenty of men do act that way but a  fair amount of guys are pretty understanding. And I think it depends what sub-culture of men you are thinking of, i.e. working class men in east London, or upper-middle class seniors at Cambridge university.

Generally around online circles, especially the self improvement/pickup circles femininty in men is pretty frowned upon. And even if it's not explicitly stated, its heavily implied in the social circles I've been around. I remember vividly in secondary school, the more feminine guys were called 'moist' or 'wet' as an insult. In fact, it's only in left wing circles where its more acceptable. You are right about the sub culture part. Hippies would probably be more accepting of femininity than redpillers but I think the mainstream culture is still heavily against feminine guys although I think this is changing.

1 hour ago, Ulax said:

Returning to my personal experiences, I'd say I felt more comfort I was assured enough in my masculinity that I felt minimal threat in being perceived as more feminine. So, I know at a point in my life I was relatively comfortable expressing feminity. I even had a depression party at my university bar lol.

Yes if you are comfortable in your masculinity, then you won't worry about being percieved as feminine, but most people aren't at that level.

1 hour ago, Ulax said:

That said, I think unless you experience the social freedom that comes with doing fun cold approach pick up, its hard to understand that level of social freedom/ confidence is actually possible. And its that freedom/ confidence that i think allowed me to be more chill with the feminity in me.

Fair play, I hope to try that one day.

[Emerald]

8 hours ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@Emerald When i was writing i was thinking the opposite, that feminine is looking outwards and masculine is looking inwards for the answers.

Internal is Feminine. External is Masculine.

The healthy Feminine looks inward to the subjective truth and the intuition.

The healthy Masculine looks outward toward objective truth and expertise.

Like looking outwards helps you to be more attuned to the emotions and enviroment(me seeing as feminine) while looking yourself and only yourself (masculine)....

Looking inward is what helps you be in touch with your emotions. Your emotions aren’t happening outside of you.

Yeah i know what you mean i know some guys that are like that and i adviced them to be more attuned to their emotions because they come across as robotic,but that are extreme cases.

It’s very common… especially in men who are trying to be more Masculine by stripping themselves of the Feminine.

@Swarnim

 

[Emerald]

8 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

This thread is a good example on how your worldview warps your perception.

If you believe women are oppressed, you will think that the problem with men is the general lack of femininity. If you believe in the red pill and that kind of stuff, you will think that the problem is the lack of masculinity. I personally believe in fruit, so obviously the problem is the lack of vegetables. Although, there is a chance we are all saying the same thing in different lingos.

Anima issues are very common in men who are trying to be more Masculine.

Their lack is the Feminine… which is why they feel threatened by it and put women up on a pedestal.

And it creates a lot of unnecessary pressure in relation to women.

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

What about the meta-worldview of holism? You need to integrate all sides and become whole  

?

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Mmm, Fi and Te 

Yes

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, spiritual memes said:

That's kind of what I thought as well and feels right. But I see men like Joe Rogan, Andrew Tate, David Goggins, most UFC fighters who almost certainly repress their feminine and yet manage to be extremely masculine. Surely these men should be less masculine if the circuit is incomplete? 

Masculinity and Femininity are inborn.

You cannot add them to yourself or take them away.

You can only ignore them and atrophy their development… or you can integrate them and develop them to their most exalted forms.

Also, I would say that Joe Rogan has a fair amount of Feminine integration. 

Andrew Tate is a glass canon. You can tell he’s hiding vulnerabilities under his hardness. So, he’s very disintegrated with the Feminine.

I don’t know too much about Goggins or UFC fighters.

But the level of Masculinity and Femininity that you have is simply what you have. And it’s best not to repress either of them because you will stunt the growth in both of them.

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Ulax said:

@Emerald Then you have the issue of why more men aren't doing Jungian therapy if it would solve so many of their problems. If inner work is so crucial why aren't more men doing it? I believe it is massively crucial but its also important to understand where different demographics of men are at in terms of their ability to even grasp the importance of it. 

I think a lot of men don’t realize the root of their problems are more about the internal than they external.

A man might think “I’m terrible with women” 

And he’ll think his problem is a dating problem… or a social interaction problem… or a gender role problem… or he may think that women are the problem.

But the deep problem is the repression of his Feminine side due to shame.

And this creates a situation of both obsession with the Feminine because it represents his need for integration in himself… while also feeling powerless to it and feeling contempt for it because the spurned Anima spurns the man right back.

But I would suspect that, for the current generation of men, that most will be as they currently are. Only men who are interested in personal development might be interested.

The big thing is to raise little boys without all the heavy gender-based expectations. It’s will help them grow into their natural Masculine/Feminine energetic signature.

[Emerald]

8 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

In case you missed it last time - how does this solve men's problems in relation to dating, sex and relationships? 

One reason is that the possessive Anima tends to project itself onto women.

And the spurned Anima has a lot of Shadow Feminine qualities like manipulation, pettiness, emotional, and vampirism. (Note: these Shadow Feminine qualities are unconsciously expressed in the man’s personality as well.)

And this can create a lot of fear in men around interacting with women. And they may even find themselves attracted to women who resemble the spurned Anima.

It also makes it just about impossible to have an intimate connection with a woman because the man will unconsciously see her as a proxy for integrating his own Feminine side. And this projection will create barriers to true understanding and intimacy.

[mr_engineer]

@Emerald Okay. I get what you're saying. 

Do you think that individuals can do this work alone? Or that they need therapy? Or that they have to go through the experience of bad relationships first and then go the hard way? 

[Emerald]

58 minutes ago, mr_engineer said:

@Emerald Okay. I get what you're saying. 

Do you think that individuals can do this work alone? Or that they need therapy? Or that they have to go through the experience of bad relationships first and then go the hard way? 

You can do quite a lot of it independently. But of course, a therapist helps.

The first thing I would do is to look up Jungian resources about the archetypal Masculine and Feminine as they vary a lot from culture-based understandings of Masculinity and Femininity.

It’s a dense read, but you may get some good information in the book “Androgyny” by June Singer.

You might also appreciate the books “He” and “She” by Robert Johnson. Those are quick reads.

I also got a lot of understanding about the Masculine and Feminine from Jean Raffa. She’s my favorite Jungian author.

Her most recent book “The Soul’s Twins” is all about that. She also two other books on the topic “Healing the Sacred Divide” and “The Bridge to Wholeness”

But there’s a whole genre of Jungian authors that cover the topic of Masculine/Feminine integration.