Reality is Not What You See

[SQAAD]

I am watching this video right now. Donald Hoffman makes the argument that reality is hidden somewhere because of evolution. That what we see is not the fundamental truth. And he has some good points too. 

Is he lost too much on the appearance of things and his scientific explanations? What is your opinion on his claims? 

His arguments remind me of Leo's videos about Self-Deception.

He is also a fan of the Consciousness model. But he goes contrary to Leo's teaching that perception is truth.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by SQAAD

[Thought Art]

Reality is just the raw experience there is nothing behind it

or, you just get infinite regress 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Thought Art

[_Archangel_]

@SQAAD This is a classical fallacy. At the highest level Samsara is Nirvana. No difference
But who designed the highest teachings knew the ignorance of the students and created this division so that the stubborn finite mind could have a frame of reference.
This of cour doesn't mean that it doesn't feel fucking real when you are in it.
This helps developing traction in your spiritual persue and give you a meaning to practice (from falshood------->to Truth)
But if you go far enough on the path you'll naturally start to transcend the structures and doctrines.

[VeganAwake]

It's just so obvious that nobody really knows what the hell is going on with reality... "there's just what seems to be happening".

Nothing is hidden because it's literally happening now...look around.... it's an explosion of light color & sound!!!

❤ 

[The0Self]

If it's something of which "you" (the apparent separate self) are aware, it's not reality -- since there is no separate self / duality.

[Razard86]

5 minutes ago, The0Self said:

If it's something of which "you" (the apparent separate self) are aware, it's not reality -- since there is no separate self / duality.

You are right, and you can believe that while someone chops off your arm. You are welcome to try that exercise.

[The0Self]

4 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

You are right, and you can believe that while someone chops off your arm. You are welcome to try that exercise.

No, I'm not right. If it's believed, that's not the point. It's simply and only a pointer to boundless consciousness.

[Batman]

Every creature's perceptive faculties are shaped around the survival of the creature, not the perception of what is. Perception is supplying the life form with the information that is needed for the persistence of the form. For example, you cannot perceive (without equipment) the structure of a skin cell on your body, not to mention the particles that it is composed of. Moreover, humans have five sensory organs, which already shows you that no sensory organ can provide the "entire picture" and so is inherently limited. So, because perceptions and appearances are by nature limited and formed, it is impossible to perceive or conceive of the Absolute Truth. The only possibility is to create a limited appearance or perception of "it".

I suspect you misunderstand Leo's communications or you are confused by the paradox that show up when you try to understand absolute truth. Even though appearances (or perceptions) are misrepresentations that is constructed for survival, it does not mean that they are separated from Consciousness. Appearances/Perceptions are manifestations of Consciousness, which is why it is sometimes said that Consciousness is both the appearance and not the appearance at the same time. It is the same with the distinctions that are created between Absolute and relative or Infinity and finite. All that is relative is not Absolute because it is finite and limited, but the Absolute is the entirety of the relative "domain" because it is infinite and isn't distinct from anything that is finite. 

TL:DR: Consciousness can form into appearances which are limited and are ultimately an illusion that is essential for survival.

[RMQualtrough]

1 hour ago, SQAAD said:

I am watching this video right now. Donald Hoffman makes the argument that reality is hidden somewhere because of evolution. That what we see is not the fundamental truth. And he has some good points too.

Is he lost too much on the appearance of things and his scientific explanations? What is your opinion on his claims?

He is also a fan of the Consciousness model. But he goes contrary to Leo's teaching that perception is truth.

 

 

This is just how a scientist would of course word things and see things.

It's also difficult to describe the idea that there's nothing "behind" things. Because of course people will say that when you close your door, your hallway is still outside. Or, things are made of atoms, made of quarks, made of X. Which isn't what is being conveyed when you try to explain there isn't anything behind objects.

I'm not sure how to actually communicate that idea succinctly and without confusion to a materialist... Probably easier using sound, because then they can't think there's a hallway behind the sound as they might with a door?

[Razard86]

55 minutes ago, The0Self said:

No, I'm not right. If it's believed, that's not the point. It's simply and only a pointer to boundless consciousness.

And I'm pointing to you that you are engaging in delusion. If someone is chopping you up, you would drop all of that. I really am starting to wonder about you all on this forum. You would state all this nonsense and then when someone is chopping you up you drop it so dang fast. But I'll help you with a clue. Reality and Illusion are the same thing. If the illusion wasn't real then I would chop you up and you would feel nothing. You are in a dream, but the dream is very real. God creates reality through dreams. It is foolish to say its illusion unless you have reached a state in which the dream cannot influence or impact you.

The whole point of calling it illusion is the pointer to help someone awaken. But that is all it is, a pointer. The dream is still very real in your direct experience. Only when you reach certain levels of consciousness can you transcend reality and see it for the illusion that it is. But unless you are in that state...that illusion will be very real for you. 

[RMQualtrough]

8 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Only when you reach certain levels of consciousness can you transcend reality and see it for the illusion that it is. But unless you are in that state...that illusion will be very real for you. 

You still don't really escape the illusion, you're still at the mercy of sheer experience (which is all appearances, right?).

And when Leo becomes "infinite" (vaporizing 5, not the weird shit), there's no person to influence anything. He "became" reality.

I had a disturbing experience of a type of boundlessness that was beyond what I had felt prior. It was like there was no border anywhere in ANY direction, and thus there was NOWHERE to grab onto to orient myself or to begin to manipulate or control something. To grasp things you need something to grab hold of, mentally or otherwise.

If there is no boundary created by the appearances, you can't orient yourself at all. It's a disturbing and bizarre experience, quite like Salvia in that your mind can never grasp anything so just laughs psychotically where it's attempting and failing on loop....... We're always in SOME sort of illusion even when pain and whatever sheds.

Edited June 13, 2022 by RMQualtrough

[Razard86]

4 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

You still don't really escape the illusion, you're still at the mercy of sheer experience (which is all appearances, right?).

And when Leo becomes "infinite" (vaporizing 5, not the weird shit), there's no person to influence anything. He "became" reality.

I had a disturbing experience of a type of boundlessness that was beyond what I had felt prior. It was like there was no border anywhere in ANY direction, and thus there was NOWHERE to grab onto to orient myself or to begin to manipulate or control something. To grasp things you need something to grab hold of, mentally or otherwise.

If there is no boundary created by the appearances, you can't orient yourself at all. It's a disturbing and bizarre experience, quite like Salvia in that your mind can never grasp anything so just laughs psychotically where it's attempting and failing on loop....... We're always in SOME sort of illusion even when pain and whatever sheds.

You are correct that as long as you are at the mercy of the experiences then you are still in the illusion. And with the examples you gave sure, if you are not in your default formless state. I been researching people who had Near Death Experiences and they say our true form is an infinite light. 

 They did say they all merged with an infinite singularity of light. So I would say that infinity you refer to would be the one state you are not in illusion. 

But the point I'm saying is creation is dream. Its only an illusion because in comparison to the creator (God) its merely an illusion. But when you enter your creation as we have....its real. The point of calling it illusion is to wake you up. When God dreams those dreams are real. Its only illusion because its a dream but since it is a dream conjured up by an infinite all powerful being...its real. 

You see its paradoxical. I'm trying to get people to stop ignoring the paradox. You know how funny a guy looks going on this forum talking about its all illusion, then when he gets off he is worried about paying his bills or some other nonsense lol.

Its better for him to say yes on the Meta level is all illusion but in the present moment right now its real to me.

 

[Leo Gura]

Hoffman is clueless about what consciousness is. His argument is self-deception.

You cannot understand what reality is using science. Period.

Smart people saying very dumb things that fool the ignorant public.

[RMQualtrough]

@Leo Gura That is good, these are the middle ground type of people who can draw in people who would not even watch a clip of you or Sadghuru and just dismiss it as evidence-less "woo".

But they will listen to a scientist or Sam Harris. And you only really need that small dent in the image of reality to allow it to crumble entirely...

People may go to your videos from these individuals.

[Leo Gura]

A small dent is nowhere near enough.

But it can be an entry point to a long slippery slope.

[The0Self]

8 hours ago, Razard86 said:

And I'm pointing to you that you are engaging in delusion. If someone is chopping you up, you would drop all of that. I really am starting to wonder about you all on this forum. You would state all this nonsense and then when someone is chopping you up you drop it so dang fast. But I'll help you with a clue. Reality and Illusion are the same thing. If the illusion wasn't real then I would chop you up and you would feel nothing. You are in a dream, but the dream is very real. God creates reality through dreams. It is foolish to say its illusion unless you have reached a state in which the dream cannot influence or impact you.

The whole point of calling it illusion is the pointer to help someone awaken. But that is all it is, a pointer. The dream is still very real in your direct experience. Only when you reach certain levels of consciousness can you transcend reality and see it for the illusion that it is. But unless you are in that state...that illusion will be very real for you. 

Well... Having read this, it is clear that you have either misunderstood my words, or responded to the wrong person. No big deal.

(You are preaching to the choir, so to speak.)

Of course it's a pointer. I even stated as much. The wall that "I am aware of" isn't real -- that does not mean that on the same level there isn't a wall period. There just aren't any boundaries or separation. Nor is there an agent who moves through time -- that's illusory; an appearance which can stop appearing by virtue of never having been (simply the nature of the false).

Of course it's real, obviously. It's just not true. Regarding everything of which you are aware as unreal or not-me or 'not what I'm looking for' is simply a technique (really a special technique that doubles as a pointer) to short-circuit the contracted/bound energy and open up boundless consciousness -- which is where direct insight can occur. That's it. Very simple. Yeah, there are people here who seem to attempt to tell others the truth about the nature of truth, but clearly that's a fool's errand and actually impossible anyway. I can just tell them how to enter territory where the direct insight is, but I can't actually show it to them or make them see it. It's entirely beyond belief or understanding anyway.

The body will never transcend the body, obviously -- You're speaking as if you're under the impression that many people here are under the impression that the body can indeed transcend the body. But the body is not what I am.

But even prior to awakening, one can cultivate so much samadhi, bodily pain is amazingly not an issue. In fact, if you can be with any sensation in the body with no problem, you're invincible. Because even emotional pain is actually just the mind's interpretation (via hiding) of sensations in the body -- not seeing that is one of the primary blocks to awakening.

In other words, there is no illusion.

Edited June 14, 2022 by The0Self

[VeganAwake]

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

You know how funny a guy looks going on this forum talking about its all illusion, then when he gets off he is worried about paying his bills or some other nonsense lol.

Yeah but there is a big difference in someone stating that all of reality is an illusion compared to pointing out just certain aspects of reality as being illusory.

There's no doubt that THIS/Reality is an explosion of light color and sound, a completely undeniable apparent phenomenon or experience.

Illusion is already a funny word so there can be numerous misunderstandings of the way it's being used.... it's literally a word attempting to describe something that actually didn't happen.

What is referred to here as an illusion is: The experience of there actually being a real separate veganawake person inside the body that's conscious or aware. 

If this apparent identity called ME is looked at closely enough, it can start becoming obvious that there just isn't anyone or anything actually behind the those eyes.....like emptiness dancing!!

The biggest illusion is the experience that something is incomplete or needs to be done for THIS to be perfect!!

THIS is already heaven; THIS is already enlightenment; THIS is already whole, complete and perfect because there isn't anyone real to claim THIS as something other than perfection ? 

❤ 

 

 

[The0Self]

49 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Yeah but there is a big difference in someone stating that all of reality is an illusion compared to pointing out just certain aspects of reality as being illusory.

There's no doubt that THIS/Reality is an explosion of light color and sound, a completely undeniable apparent phenomenon or experience.

Illusion is already a funny word so there can be numerous misunderstandings of the way it's being used.... it's literally a word attempting to describe something that actually didn't happen.

What is referred to here as an illusion is: The experience of there actually being a real separate veganawake person inside the body that's conscious or aware. 

If this apparent identity called ME is looked at closely enough, it can start becoming obvious that there just isn't anyone or anything actually behind the those eyes.....like emptiness dancing!!

The biggest illusion is the experience that something is incomplete or needs to be done for THIS to be perfect!!

THIS is already heaven; THIS is already enlightenment; THIS is already whole, complete and perfect because there isn't anyone real to claim THIS as something other than perfection ? 

❤ 

 

 

There is no one who could ever leave perfection even for a single moment. All moments are appearances in THIS. (just THIS, DAMMIT! )

The lie is pretty incredible though -- from its perspective, it seems just plain real, in spite of not actually happening.

[SQAAD]

@Leo Gura

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Hoffman is clueless about what consciousness is. His argument is self-deception.

You have talked in the past how the mechanism of existence is self-deception itself. If that is the case then maybe what we see is not the absolute truth and there is something else we ignore. Can you comment on that?

Edited June 14, 2022 by SQAAD

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

@Leo Gura

You have talked in the past how the mechanism of existence is self-deception itself. If that is the case then maybe what we see is not the absolute truth and there is something else we ignore. Can you comment on that?

The self-deception is what keeps you from realizing that you are Absolute.

You are ignoring yourself.