What Lefties Get Wrong About NATO

[tsuki]

Do not forget that "defense" NATO claims is an act within the domain of war.

When you are in a conflict with your neighbor and you pile up on dynamite on your property just outside of his house, you don't get to use "it's just defense bro!" excuse forever. Your neighbor is not an idiot and it does not matter to him that it is not against the law to pile up on it - especially if you set the law yourself.

[Eternity]

Why are we talking here like NATO is one united nation?  It's not.  The nations belonging to NATO are not just one big happy family and they were not all conspiring together to "get Putin."  That idea is not true, but Putin is an accomplished liar and evidently very convincing with his latest lies.  NATO can't even agree on some strategies to give Ukraine assistance.  There is plenty of squabbling inside NATO.  So this conspiracy story of how NATO was ever planning together in complete harmony to bring about the downfall of Russia is really nonsense, though Putin may believe that or at least he's pushing that viewpoint to justify marching into a country who has never threatened him and considered Russia a brother nation.  NATO has not, as a practice, moved aggressively together  in lockstep with the US, let alone in harmony, toward invading another country unless it was strictly a defensive move to help an underdog nation against a more powerful and brutal dictator than they can fight who intends to crush the downtrodden citizens into submission.

The US is seen as the enforcer around the world which its own citizens do not wish for.  Biden promised no more world policing during his campaign and is doing his best not to take on that role once again.  I believe Putin figured out that for him, Putin, this would be a favorable time to carry out an attack, without military backing from the US  for Unkraine.  He has been unhappy about the way things went in '93 when the Soviet Union fell apart and was just waiting for the right time to start his campaign to get those territories back and re-establish the Soviet Union.  And so it has begun.  Putin wanted to do what Hitler did when he started WW2:  Just roll into one country after another and conquer them with force only needing a day or two for them to capitulate.  There is a you tube psychologist who has many videos out comparing the behavior of high profile people to symptoms of psychological illnesses and then proposes the odds of these people having psychological problems:

And aside from all that, Ukraine was never a threat to Putin, never tried aggression towards him.  They wanted into NATO. That was their big crime and Putin saw that and sees still that Ukraine being as large as they are and so close that NATO would have to come to Ukraine's aid and Putin wouldn't be able to get his hands on Ukraine.  So we can't say that Putin was worried for Russia.  Ohhh no.  That dog don't hunt.  Putin is and was worried only for his own self-interests.  He wanted a bigger more powerful country to glorify himself.  He wanted to bask in the position of power over such a vast state.  One that he can't even afford.  However with Ukraine's oil and gas reserves, he could support his vast country and he could do it in one fell swoop while becoming lead dictator in the world.  What a feather in his cap that would be.

It wouldn't last long anyway though even if he could conquer Ukraine because his best customers for gas and oil have now seen the light and will be switching to other sources of fuel.  And then his prices will drop and his fortune will disappear and 1993 will repeat itself.  Sad delusional little man.  I almost could feel sorry for him, for about 2 seconds if he weren't slaughtering people and robbing them of their homes and futures.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Eternity

[tsuki]

9 minutes ago, Eternity said:

So this conspiracy story of how NATO was ever planning together in complete harmony to bring about the downfall of Russia is really nonsense, though Putin may believe that or at least he's pushing that viewpoint to justify marching into a country who has never threatened him and considered Russia a brother nation.  

What Putin believes in is reason enough for him to start a war in Ukraine.

[Blackhawk]

@Eternity Exactly. Good post.

Apparently most people in this forum are stupid idiots. Painful to see how people are Putin's useful idiots.

[tsuki]

@Blackhawk

25 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

@Eternity Exactly. Good post.

Apparently most people in this forum are stupid idiots. Painful to see how people are Putin's useful idiots.

Yep, duble down on demonization, this will definitely make you more audible to "most people".

[Eternity]

@tsuki I never referred to Putin as a demon spirit or whatever.  He is a sick man, unfortunately with no cure for his disordered personality.  As for excusing his behavior, someone who has schizophrenia could  be excused for abhorrent behavior due to the sensory illusions he experiences.  However, Putin appears to have normal sensory intake.  He knows what he is doing so there is no reason to excuse his killer instincts anymore than the psychopathic serial killer.  Putin is not criminally insane, meaning he knows right from wrong, but ignores or turns a blind eye to his behavior no matter how brutal if it appears to end in his favor.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Eternity

[Epikur]

People confuse psychology with politics. They are different things. 

[tsuki]

2 hours ago, Eternity said:

As for excusing his behavior, someone who has schizophrenia could  be excused for abhorrent behavior due to the sensory illusions he experiences.

You are confusing moral excuses with understanding.

Not only that, but you are actively working on discouraging people from investigating reasons for Putin's behavior by calling him a senseless psychopath, and thus suggesting that there are no reasons for what he is doing, or that those reasons are incomprehensible. 

If you do not want to understand because you are afraid that you may see his actions as justified, then don't. But realize this is your own fear of your own mind that you project on other people's quest for knowledge.

Even if he were a psychopath, or had schizophrenia, it would be worthwhile to at least investigate the signs of it, or even reasons for it. 

 

And again: the fallacy you are committing is that you equate understanding with moral exemption. The fact that I understand the laws that govern the orbit of a moon-sized comet that will kill every living creature on Earth does not imply that I find it acceptable and that I will not try to deflect it. The fact that I understand why Putin wants something different from what I want, does not mean that I will now support him against my own best interest. This is relationships and negotiation 101. 

[somegirl]

@Blackhawk

You have like 0 willingness to understand situation on a holistic level and refuse to see someone else's perspective and just double down even when someone points out your obvious bias. We all have biases we might not be aware of, but at least we can try to be aware of them and not let them cloud our judgement too much.

I don't know why someone even tries to explain to you the bigger picture cause even when it's elaborated well to you, you still stubbornly refuse to try to understand and just lazily say "Well he's a demon, end of the story." 

At this point it is obvious even to you that you're just here to plead your bias towards West* and have no interest in changing your beliefs whatsoever.  

Edited March 7, 2022 by somegirl

[Blackhawk]

@somegirl That's only what you think. But you're wrong.

I'm sorry that you guys are so stupid.

I'm out of this pro-Putin and anti-Nato/west forum. Why don't you guys move to Russia. You guys disgust me.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Blackhawk

[Preety_India]

3 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

@somegirl That's only what you think. But you're wrong.

I'm sorry that you guys are so stupid.

I'm out of this pro-Putin and anti-Nato/west forum. Why don't you guys move to Russia. You guys disgust me.

Calm down please. 

 

[somegirl]

To be fair... 

If my life was on the line like it is in Ukraine now, it probably wouldn't even cross my mind to understand the agressor. I would be so damn pissed/scared and would just try to survive.

Edited March 7, 2022 by somegirl

[Michael569]

5 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

Apparently most people in this forum are stupid idiots. Painful to see how people are Putin's useful idiots.

if you cannot argue without using inflammatory language, don't debate at all. Try to show more empathy for people not sharing your worldview rather than being flat out arrogant. Thanks! 

[zurew]

@somegirl

5 minutes ago, somegirl said:

If my country was bombarded, it probably wouldn't even cross my mind to understand the agressor. I would be so damn pissed/scared and would just try to survive.

Yes that is totally understandable. The ephasis here is on understanding other people's point of view, without making moral judgements on them. It is totally different to be able to see why someone is operating the way they operate, without calling them stupid or biased or other things. But there is the other spectrum, where we can call everyone stupid, who don't agree with our positions.

Everyone has its own biases, but i think we should focus more on evaluating the ideas, rather than attacking always the person, who makes the claims.

Edited March 7, 2022 by zurew

[Ananta]

8 hours ago, Preety_India said:

All of this won't happen if the people lovingly look at their dictator

Sounds like Stockholm Syndrome that some hostages get for their captor. 

Dictators use intimidation, murder, imprisonment, violence and other human rights abuses to control the population under a dictatorship, much like the hostage-captor scenario.

[somegirl]

40 minutes ago, zurew said:

Yes that is totally understandable. The ephasis here is on understanding other people's point of view, without making moral judgements on them. It is totally different to be able to see why someone is operating the way they operate, without calling them stupid or biased or other things. But there is the other spectrum, where we can call everyone stupid, who don't agree with our positions.

I totally agree...

But now that I think about it, imagine your very basic human need to feel safe, being in danger. You probably don't care about anything other than to survive. 

Usually when there's a threat to your basic human survival, people regress. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by somegirl

[zurew]

@somegirl Yeah thats a great point. If we just think about Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, then we can immediately realise, that we would be doing the same thing probably too.

Maybe the lesson here is that we shouldn't try to require too much from these people who is in a dangerous situation, we should be more empathetic, and not necessarily engage with the emotional responses, rather with their ideas and points.

[Preety_India]

15 minutes ago, Ananta said:

Sounds like Stockholm Syndrome that some hostages get for their captor. 

Dictators use intimidation, murder, imprisonment, violence and other human rights abuses to control the population under a dictatorship, much like the hostage-captor scenario.

I was actually referring to a benevolent dictator, like in olden days we had kings. I was referring to noble kings. Although they would be called dictators too by today's standards since they might not get elected by the people in a democratic way. 

We can call it a different name like monarch. 

 

[Ananta]

14 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

I was actually referring to a benevolent dictator, like in olden days we had kings. I was referring to noble kings. Although they would be called dictators too by today's standards since they might not get elected by the people in a democratic way. 

We can call it a different name like monarch. 

 

Hm, you said in your next sentence you thought the ppl of Russia were in love with Putin until now and now you don't know how they feel. So, seems to me you were talking about Putin?

[How to be wise]

22 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You have no idea the complexity involved here.

Or maybe you are too emotionally involved with Russia to see the simple truth.