I asked Rupert Spira directly about solipsism - here is what he said

[Gesundheit2]

@peanutspathtotruth

All of this discussion can be boiled down to these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism (Spirituality in general).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_idealism (Leo/Solipsism).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective_idealism (Spira and the others).

[GreenWoods]

2 minutes ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

He's not saying there is something outside of Consciousness, he's repeatedly saying there is only one infinite consciousness. He's saying that what's seen here is not all that is to see.

Again, I see the conflation of two things:

A) there is one consciousness and everything is it, nothing else exists, it's infinite and perfect and love, etc.

B) this experience right now, this content made out of consciousness in consciousness, is the only content there is in consciousness.

A does not lead to B, but that's what you're saying. And the possibility that in infinite consciousness there can be multiple points of view at the same time is also not negated by A.

I'm not on any position - I have no idea, just a hunch (which isn't worth much). But the way you guys argue against Rupert is sloppy.

Well in my opinion, A and B are exactly the same, when realizing A deeply enough.

[Inliytened1]

2 minutes ago, Meta-Man said:

But see, here’s the kicker: There is no ‘his’ consciousness. Consciousness is universal and not localized.

Right all there is is Consciousness period.  Both self and other (duality) is imagined from that.   @GreenWoods knows this that's why he put "his" in quotes.

[GreenWoods]

5 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

I believe he has answered thst and his response is thst it a small assumption to make and thst its OK to make this assumption.

Ok that's interesting. 

[GreenWoods]

1 minute ago, Meta-Man said:

The error people are making lies in conflating the ‘POV’ of the body-mind with Universal Consciousness. 

It’s all about about waking up to a living, timeless, universal reality.

Universal Consciousness is the bubble.

Infinity/God is completely shapeshifting into this bubble right now. 

Otherwise you wouldn't be God, but a part of God. 

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

Universal Consciousness is the bubble.

Infinity/God is completely shapeshifting into this bubble right now. 

Otherwise you wouldn't be God, but a part of God. 

Reminds me of the finger/hand analogy.  When you look at one of the fingers of your hand you can realize that it is actually the entire hand by making a shift in consciousness.  The finger was just something it had shape-shifted itselt into.  But when you see it as the whole hand all the fingers collapse into the hand.

[Tim R]

7 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Reminds me of the finger/hand analogy.  When you look at one of the fingers of your hand you can realize that it is actually the entire hand by making a shift in consciousness.  The finger was just something it had shape-shifted itselt into.  But when you see it as the whole hand all the fingers collapse into the hand.

??????

"There are no other fingers"?

"You're a Solipsist!!"?

No, I'm the goddamn hand

[Inliytened1]

Just now, Tim R said:

??????

"There are no other fingers"?

Precisely

[Reciprocality]

@Gesundheit2 In being a subjective idealist in the manner by which you hold independent consciousnesses of each other which are all existent yet fundamentally divided. 

That is so contradictory that is amazes me how it is done, at that point you would be far better of believing in the independent existence of a physical world as the very division between such consciousnesses and even more so the contingent existence of that physical world.

Now so far as subjective idealism is a monism the above does not apply to it, at which point the difference between it and objective idealism becomes meaningless as in constituting an isomorphism.

The problem is that these terms are defined by people who do not understand what they themselves mean when they say existence.

Edit: There is only one possible thing one could mean by existence, yet they are managing to screw it up.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Reciprocality

[Gesundheit2]

14 minutes ago, Tim R said:

??????

"There are no other fingers"?

"You're a Solipsist!!"?

No, I'm the goddamn hand

If you're truly the hand and you believe that, then why do you keep acting like a separate finger? Why the cognitive-behavioral dissonance?

Edited February 25, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Tim R]

@Gesundheit2 There's no need to believe that you are the hand, once you've seen it, theres no coming back. And then, all you have to do is work at becoming more and more who you already are.

There's no dissonance at all. Although certain insights have this "all-or-nothing" quality, the embodiment is a continuous process and you won't get rid of your role as the finger over night. You don't have to. You are the hand, no matter what. But: if one "exploits" this, one hasn't understood. So this is not a justification for anything, it just gets rid of the dissonance.

[Gesundheit2]

 

11 minutes ago, Tim R said:

@Gesundheit2 There's no need to believe that you are the hand, once you've seen it, theres no coming back. And then, all you have to do is work at becoming more and more who you already are.

But you claim that you already are the hand. If that's truly the case and you actually believe that, then what work is there to do?

Quote

There's no dissonance at all. Although certain insights have this "all-or-nothing" quality, the embodiment is a continuous process and you won't get rid of your role as the finger over night. 

Does embodying your role as the hand mean getting rid of your role as the finger? Is this "the work" from your perspective?

Edited February 25, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Gesundheit2]

14 minutes ago, Tim R said:

@Gesundheit2 So this is not a justification for anything, it just gets rid of the dissonance.

I don't know. It sounds more like rationalization for the dissonance.

[Gili Trawangan]

41 minutes ago, Meta-Man said:

The bubble is limited.

If you call it a bubble it sounds limited.

But where are the limits really? Are there edges? Is there any kind of limitation that isn't imagined?

The infinite can look, feel, appear as whatever it wants.

[GreenWoods]

37 minutes ago, Meta-Man said:

The bubble is limited.

The bubble appears to be limited and finite, but actually it is Infinity. That is the illusion.

All of Infinity collapses into this bubble. You could say, every human, alien and universe of past and future, are the substance that this bubble is made of. They are all here, appearing to be a finite bubble. That's also why you are not alone. All of Infinty is right here. They have become you, they are you. And later on, your finite self will become them.

43 minutes ago, Meta-Man said:

I am God (universal consciousness), but this bubble is only a tiny, limited part of God. 

If this bubble, therefore this consciousness, were only a part of God, you could never realize that you are God.

The only way that you can know that you are God, is by literally becoming all of God (or realizing that You are already all of God), otherwise it would only be assumption and intuition. 

So if you say, you had an 'experience' of being God, then that by definition must mean, that you were conscious that nothing outside your consciousness exists. Otherwise you were only a part of God or being God was an assumption or intuition. 

And obviously, there is no real difference between the state of realizing that you are God, and the state where you believe to be a small self, therefore even in that seemingly contracted state, there can not be something outside you. Because You are always all of You. 

[Forza21]

24 minutes ago, Tim R said:

@Gesundheit2 There's no need to believe that you are the hand, once you've seen it, theres no coming back. And then, all you have to do is work at becoming more and more who you already are.

 

There is! i've seen it a couple of times, and i still forget it every-damn-time when i come back from trip .  I really believe i don't want to forget it, but ... i think it's self-deception as always. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Forza21

[Gesundheit2]

1 minute ago, Forza21 said:

There is! i've seen it a couple of times, and i still forget it every-damn-time when i come back from trip .  I really believe i don't want to forget it, but ... i think it's self-deception as always. 

"Self-deception" is the forgetting.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, Forza21 said:

There is! i've seen it a couple of times, and i still forget it every-damn-time when i come back from trip .  I really believe i don't want to forget it, but ... i think it's self-deception as always. 

How many times have you tripped?  I am not a psychedelic user but Leo claims if you haven't done at least 50 trips you haven't really begun.  However as I told the other guy, it's normal for the ego to come back and cast doubt.  It has to keep itself alive you know...you need to slowly cut away at this.  

[Forza21]

2 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

 

If this bubble, therefore this consciousness, were only a part of God, you could never realize that you are God.

The only way that you can know that you are God, is by literally becoming all of God (or realizing that You are already all of God), otherwise it would only be assumption and intuition. 

So if you say, you had an 'experience' of being God, then that by definition must mean, that you were conscious that nothing outside your consciousness exists. Otherwise you were only a part of God or being God was an assumption or intuition. 

And obviously, there is no real difference between the state of realizing that you are God, and the state where you believe to be a small self, therefore even in that seemingly contracted state, there can not be something outside you. Because You are always all of You. 

Holy fuck! that hit me like a thunder. You are god-damn right.

You can't realize "part of God" it's like, you would find out, that you are just one piece of puzzle.  Therefore, You would never know the entire fucking picture!!!

So.... my "bubble" of consciousness is the whole fucking God. DAMN!

But still, there's that paradox, that "other -me - self aka "other people" experience "their" bubble, and it can't  fit well into my mind, how is it possible... is it different timeline? Different live?  They are all me, but how?

[Forza21]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

How many times have you tripped?  I am not a psychedelic user but Leo claims if you haven't done at least 50 trips you haven't really begun.  However as I told the other guy, it's normal for the ego to come back and cast doubt.  It has to keep itself alive you know...you need to slowly cut away at this.  

15+ times, so yeah, i think i need to get used to it, and trip some more. BUT it happens some-time in sober state as well, that i look into someone's eyes, and there's that recognition...it's me... it's like universe/god/me/ recognizes itself.