Andrea Marchetti

Spiral dynamics on COVID political situation

78 posts in this topic

I'm wondering, how would I allocate the various political actions taken about the pandemic and the various degrees of acceptance by the public?
I'm having troubles in identifying through the lents of spiral dynamics such a situation. It happens that many societies are getting polarised, you're either pro or con; but, on the contrary, there are many stages involved here and often - it seems to me - different stages find themselves in accord, for totally different reasons. And for the same reasons, a lot of misunderstanding and misrecognition happens between the parts

So, to simplify the question, where would you put the following things on the spiral?
lockdowns,
anti-lockdown reaction,
restrictions 
green passes,
anti-green pass,
novax and provax,
etc... *feel free to add items to the list*

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Posted (edited)

Lockdowns - Stage Blue measure (radically destroy many parts of human society, without even thinking about self-responsibility and the consequences)

Anti-Lockdown Reaction - Higher Stage Green (went to some protests in Germany and the people there, especially the younger ones are super developed compared to the average students)

Restrictions - Stage Blue / Orange (Again there is no real self-responsibility, at least here in Germany, Sweden is different for example)

Green Passes - Stage Orange (People can´t chose how they define their own Health anymore, it´s the start of a biodigital-authoritarianism from my point of view) - No one should be able to force anyone to anything, that just create for Trauma

Anti-Green Pass - Stage Green / Yellow (Mostly people who see the inherent problems with medicalizing the whole world) -> A book I recommend here is Medical Nemesis: The Expropriation of Health by Ivan Illich (it´s from 1976 but super relevant)

Novax / Provax discussion is all over the place, there are Stage Green / Yellow people, Orange People etc.

  • like Leo (High Green / Yellow) who fell for the Ideology of Vaccines being the absolute good, I believe he is pretty biased on this topic (maybe because of health-reasons? -> more fear?)
  • Then there are Stage Orange politicians who push for it
  • There are Stage Blue people who are against it
  • There are Stage Yellow people against it 
  • ...

Of course all of this is sold in the form of Green-Values (Solidarity, We are all one, Have to work together etc. etc.) - but it´s mostly about virtue-signaling.

-> It´s all because those evil conspiracy-theorists and stupid trump-followers (pushing responsibility away from yourself).

-> Yet we can still see that we live in dysfunctional systems, after all the talk in March 2020 of us - as humanity - having to change the way we interact and work together...
if it was really about saving people with the vaccines, why still insist on intellectual property? People paid for the research and development with their tax-money... There are factories set up in a lot of eastern countries, but they can´t produce... Why if the goal is to vaccinate everyone?

-> Still all about money not about health

Of course this is all just one interpretation, interested to hear how other people try to make sense of this with spiral dynamics

Edited by BadHippie

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Posted (edited)

@BadHippie I think I'm greenish as well and I'm not very in for the green-pass. It's all sold, as you said, as a green thing, but I'm not sure it really is.

People here in Italy, those who protest in the streets against green-pass, as fas as I've seen in videos, are mostly red. Yet I find myself in accord with them in a few of their points, the few they manage to do. But they're mostly ignorant and I don't support their way of protesting nor their very simple thinking. It's strange that a green is in accord with a red, unless I'm red as well, but again, I'm not in the same boat as them and don't want to be.

The whole pro-lockdown, pro-green pass movement looks blue/orange to me too, but I find it strange that they go together. Maybe because they're both against green, even if, formally, the whole lockdown and vaccination campaign looks green. So I'm really confused.

To me it seems quite absurd: the vaccine doesn't stop the spreading of the virus, so the only benefit people have if other people get vaccinated is less taxes for hospitalisation (at least here in Italy) and a milder pressure on intensive therapies (that would get milder anyway, since most people are vaccinated). So, I'm 28, I'm sane and not very much afraid of the virus as far as I'm concerned (maybe I'll die, who knows); why should I be indirectly and dishonestly obliged to take a medicine I don't want, if there's no damage to others? This is what concerns me.

An objection might be: you're not an integrous green, otherwise, as a previously sane orange, you would have recognised the benefits of a vaccine, which is scientifically developed and tested. Firstly, there's an ethical problem: doesn't matter the reason why one would refuse the vaccine, if my action doesn't hurt people, it's totally my choice (even if it may indirectly hurt people the question remains open). Secondly, I'm not against vaccines (but generally I'm not for synthetic medicines in general, I'm young and think and act as if the food and a proper cure for the body are the best medicine, even though I'm for taking them only if it's way beyond the actual capabilities of my mind-body) but I see the limits of science, I don't like how arrogant the majority of the scientific community is and I find it politically dangerous, fit for a technocracy. Nor I like how pharma companies are producing and selling their products, but this doesn't make me a conspiracy theorist as many would say. I don't like the centralisation of power which is happening now: I see how useful it could be on many issues, but also how dangerous it can turn if people in power are not interested in anything but themselves; the former is what easy to see, the utility of it, the latter is what is unconscious and "evil". And I see how the whole thing is levered on fear, the greatest fear there is, fear of death; so, usually, nothing very good come out of it, if it goes through ideology. 

Edited by Andrea Marchetti

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Something like a lockdown is not necessarily related to any stage.

Be careful trying to assign inanimate objects and concepts to stages. Stages models human psyches, not every physical object or event in the universe. HUMAN PSYCHES!


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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Posted (edited)

@Andrea Marchetti

Actually it's reversed: it's how a person sees these concepts and methods that tells you his/her level of development.

Edited by Superfluo

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Posted (edited)

Quote

Something like a lockdown is not necessarily related to any stage.

Be careful trying to assign inanimate objects and concepts to stages. Stages models human psyches, not every physical object or event in the universe. HUMAN PSYCHES!

I am aware of that, I am not talking about the Lockdown, Green-Passes, etc. being a specific stage.
I am talking about the way the Green-Pass gets advertised.
Or in the case of Lockdown the way they push it into the awareness of people.
In the case of the protests I talk about my own personal-experience with people who are on that protest.

@Andrea Marchetti

How can you see on a Video of someone is Red, violence? Maybe because the way the media framed those people? Imagine being Stage Orange/Green/Yellow and the state doing something that endangers your survival... I think everyone is able to violence, if the right buttons are pushed. Maybe some super-enlightened Gurus aren´t but I don´t know.

Here in Germany people who go to demonstrations get framed as right-wing, conspiracy-theorists, etc.
So I went there to check it out - turned out to be Propaganda. I didn´t see a single Nazi, nor conspiracy-theorist, just some "Antifa"-people (who demonstrated against us) who behaved like fascists. 
Experience is King as Leo would say.

Edited by BadHippie

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Posted (edited)

Mid Orange and below tends be anti-vax.

These are also the same folks who think Covid is either a hoax, or see it as a reason to demonize anyone with Chinese ancestry. They can also put major emphasis into the idea of "elites" led by Bill Gates to destroy libertarian/conservative values they hold so dear by staging the pandemic.

They hate science, and Anthony Fauci...probably more so.

They don't have a very wide circle of concern essentially.

Edited by Terell Kirby

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Posted (edited)

@Terell Kirby

How many anti-vaxxers have you talked to? Really talked to on while authentically relating, not demonizing them. Really trying to understand where they come from? 

I know some and they are mostly green-yellow. Most of them understand Health on a more profound level, or using a different model for health, so they don't want that vaccine. 

No one of them said Covid is a hoax. Most of them simply believe that there are people who are using this crisis to push some agenda -> opportunism, which you can see in any crisis... "never let a good crisis go by, without using it" 

Also Anthony Fauci plays some pretty stupid character, I didn't see much of him, but what I saw made me question how so many people believe the bullshit he talks about. He's like the American Christian Drosten... 

Also these people are ones with a wide range of Concerns (Infrastructure, Education, Health, Economy, Environmental Issues, Our Food being poison, ...) It's not just about Covid for most of them, it's more of a general resistance to the way we as collective develop. They have a different idea how globalization can work in a way that's more healthy to individuals. 

 

 

 

Edited by BadHippie

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Posted (edited)

@Leo Gura a lockdown is a human concept and action. it's nowhere but inside minds. it's not inanimate and objective as a stone.

even at the beginning of the pandemic when lockdown was still under doubt, a few countries refused to apply it (for instance, Sweden). so this is something that is arbitrary and depends on the values an individual or a society has. I see it as a perfect object for a spiral dynamics analysis. 

Maybe you mean it's not related to any stage in particular, like... don't know... perceiving? .. It might be... even if this doesn't seem to be the case, since there are people and societies who refused at least once to accept it or to apply it. 

Edited by Andrea Marchetti

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@Superfluo I agree with you, that's one half of the coin, and that's indeed what I'm also asking for. Ultimately is the same thing. But these concepts and methods comes out of a certain perception and understanding of the world, which is therefore identifiable by a spiral dynamics analysis.  They're not already present, objective and independent from humans. They're very human products.

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2 hours ago, BadHippie said:

How many anti-vaxxers have you talked to? Really talked to on while authentically relating, not demonizing them. Really trying to understand where they come from? 

I know some and they are mostly green-yellow. Most of them understand Health on a more profound level, or using a different model for health, so they don't want that vaccine. 

You can’t be stage green and anti-vax.  Stage green is pro-community.  Vaccinating is a community thing, to protect the collective. 

You could however appear to be stage green in some areas and have a red/orange shadow when it comes to authority and anything that challenges the individualist mindset.  For example I know of an anti-vaxxer who is an ‘extreme vegan’ and anarchist.  He thinks Germany is a dictatorship and likened Merkel to Saddam Hussein lol.  He told me that he will pay to get himself a fake vaccine passport.  So you might look at him and see that he’s a vegan, so assume he’s stage green or above.  But really he’s just anti-establishment. 

yes on an individual level, you don’t necessarily need a vaccine, you can keep yourself healthy, avoid public places and avoid socialising.  But this is a community thing.  


 

Your future self is watching you right now through memories

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17 minutes ago, intotheblack said:

You can’t be stage green and anti-vax.  Stage green is pro-community.  Vaccinating is a community thing, to protect the collective.

Actually you can, and plenty are.

The whole suspicion of vaccines started in hippie progressive Green communities where people want to be "natural" and organic. And it has some validity there because traditional vaccines are not healthy due to heavy metals. But then it spread into right-wing Blue/Orange circles to feed their anti-government and freedumb ideology. So actually a Green thing has been hijacked by idiots who are not conscious enough to even care about holistic health.

Those same MAGA people who cry about the vaccine will shovel McDonalds poison into their pie holes with reckless abandon.

My holistic doctor is very anti vaccines and he urged me not to get it. He's otherwise a great doctor, way more knowledgeable than regular doctors. I would put him at Green. But Green ain't Yellow.

What you must understand about anti-vaxxers is that from their POV, their opposition to the vaccine IS pro-community. Their minds are just twisted.

Blue/Orange and Green anti-vaxxers both feel like their anti-vax stance is them defending the community, but for different reasons. Blue/Orange is defending the community for freedumb from tyranny. Green is defending the community from unnatural man-made toxins. There is also a resentment of large corporations from both sides.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Actually you can, and plenty are.

The whole suspicion of vaccines started in hippie progressive Green communities where people want to be "natural" and organic. And it has some validity there because traditional vaccines are not healthy. But then it spread into right-wing Blue/Orange circles to feed their anti-government and freedumb ideology.

Hmm yeah.  But still those hippie communes had their own little community going on and would usually avoid society as a whole.  They secluded themselves from the rest of society. But say if a disease broke out in the group and there were vulnerable members in the group, and taking a vaccine would protect their commune members then they would do it. 


 

Your future self is watching you right now through memories

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9 minutes ago, intotheblack said:

But say if a disease broke out in the group and there were vulnerable members in the group, and taking a vaccine would protect their commune members then they would do it.

I think you underestimate their convictions.

They certainly will not do it. Because they believe doing it would hurt their community.

There is no way you're going to convince my holistic doctor to take the Covid vaccine. He's drunk the Green Kool-Aid. And he's a real doctor who sees patients every day! And he's not a stupid doctor, he's one of the best doctors I've ever worked with.

These problems of epistemology and perspective are way deeper than they first appear. Being a doctor is not good enough to avoid such problems.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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The fact that America isn't going to hit 60% vaccination is insane. The level of misinformation in alternative media and the polarisation has gotten out of control

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Posted (edited)

The pandemic response is a basic survival response to a pathogen. It can happen in any type of society, from pre-agricultural, Purple tribal socities to hyper-technological, Tier 2 global societies. It's even observed in animals: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3189355/

 

On 26.7.2021 at 2:47 PM, Andrea Marchetti said:

lockdowns,
anti-lockdown reaction,
restrictions 
green passes,
anti-green pass,
novax and provax,

These don't seem to be explained by the developmental domain. You'll have a better chance with the temperament or personality domain. For example, if you're prone to paranoia and distrust of authority, you're more likely to be skeptical of these types of government interventions.

Edited by Carl-Richard

To balance beauty and complexity so perfectly is a divine mystery.

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I understand the green perspective and i get the red perspective, i dont necessarily agree with these perspectives but i think Leos laid this out quite well. If we say that what we currently have now in terms of the pandemic solution is a Blue/Orange (vaccines, lockdown etc) then what would be a red or green solution, as in if there was a green leader in charge who didnt believe in the current course of action what would their solution be? Also how effective would it likely be? 

We've had red leaders deal with it, most notably Bolsanaro in Brazil, which was a complete disaster and led to the state leaders simply not listening to him. We also had hints of it with Trump, although he was hindered by a good amount of the population and a system that includes weighted expert opinion. Had he been allowed to do what he wanted i think we can see it wouldve been pretty damaging. 

But would like to hear from someone who is a green anti-vaxx or vaccine hesitant person to break down the steps for what would have been an alternative strategy to what we have had.

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2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

My holistic doctor is very anti vaccines and he urged me not to get it. He's otherwise a great doctor, way more knowledgeable than regular doctors. I would put him at Green. But Green ain't Yellow.

So, what would distinguish here a orange POV from a yellow POV? What an Orange would accept and do in society in regards to the pandemic that a Yellow would not do? Yellow just happens to be in accord with Orange here? On the whole thing?

Because it seems to me that a Yellow POV would understand both sides, accept the limits of science and see how we don't really know what's going to be good for us. So it would accept the vaccination campaign, as our most developed understanding available on the matter is suggesting to do. But it wouldn't accept it as the only solution, the absolute truth to take as granted and to force, somehow, on anyone else; so it would allow freedom of choice. It would also recognise the value of intuition, an intuition that is spreading across a large part of society, even if it's not elaborated enough, to not rely on vaccines, on technology in general, as our way out. I mean, the Greens seem to have a valid point when they say that our bodies needs support and not rescue or palliatives (generally speaking) in its fight against the virus and that our body is way smarter than our technology, because it is. The technology is an external resource, how long should we keep getting the vaccines? Forever? The body instead learns and memorise on its own: people dying is just another way to adjust to the presence of the virus and ultimately survive. A cold was once killing thousands of people, before some humans started to run their noses. Now we don't die anymore for a cold. Imagine the amount of vaccines we would all take in a thousands years if vaccines are our only response to infections. This is an exaggeration I don't believe in, I mean, technology is great and should be used. But it's a valid point anyway and people should take a minute or two to think about it.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Blue/Orange and Green anti-vaxxers both feel like their anti-vax stance is them defending the community, but for different reasons. Blue/Orange is defending the community for freedumb from tyranny. Green is defending the community from unnatural man-made toxins. There is also a resentment of large corporations from both sides.

Very eye opening. Culture wars can make it hard to see things from a meta perspective! Of course, the Green motivation (although bias in its own right) is higher consciousness than the Orange/Blue motivation for their anti-vax stance.

Edited by Terell Kirby

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Posted (edited)

Quote

Actually you can, and plenty are.

The whole suspicion of vaccines started in hippie progressive Green communities where people want to be "natural" and organic. And it has some validity there because traditional vaccines are not healthy due to heavy metals. But then it spread into right-wing Blue/Orange circles to feed their anti-government and freedumb ideology. So actually a Green thing has been hijacked by idiots who are not conscious enough to even care about holistic health.

Those same MAGA people who cry about the vaccine will shovel McDonalds poison into their pie holes with reckless abandon.

My holistic doctor is very anti vaccines and he urged me not to get it. He's otherwise a great doctor, way more knowledgeable than regular doctors. I would put him at Green. But Green ain't Yellow.

What you must understand about anti-vaxxers is that from their POV, their opposition to the vaccine IS pro-community. Their minds are just twisted.

Blue/Orange and Green anti-vaxxers both feel like their anti-vax stance is them defending the community, but for different reasons. Blue/Orange is defending the community for freedumb from tyranny. Green is defending the community from unnatural man-made toxins. There is also a resentment of large corporations from both sides.

@Leo Gura

Ever considered that you are the one which mind is twisted a bit? Maybe your holistic doctor knows stuff you don´t know?
He basically lives for Health, while you live for Truth? But even that isn´t the case, when I see you on the forum here. You don´t seem to me to be honestly interested in other people´s perspective, you seem to believe your interpretation of reality is always the correct one.

You talk so much about principles of living the good life, how society is an illusion etc.
But yet you still judge people here a lot, you seem to be super-convinced about so many topics you can´t be certain about.

For example: How do you actually know if these so-called vaccines are so finger-lickin´ good?
Did you develop them yourself? Study them yourself?
Did you check what else besides the mRNA is inside those new vaccines?
Did you check if the virus theory is correct?
Did you check what´s inside those vaccines?
Did you check what studies weren´t done? How the studies were designed by Pfizer and co.?
How do you know there won´t be any long-term consequences taking an experimental vaccine?
How can you say everyone should take the vaccine, if every body is different? 
...

 

Edited by BadHippie

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