You can't actually ever experience nonduality

[RMQualtrough]

You can only get close to it. When duality stops existing, experience cannot occur.

Consider a dream of a beach. The very moment you see the beach you are localized at some point within it, and there is an appearance of duality. If duality ceased, it would be impossible for you to see the beach at all because seeing is an experience, and experience creates experiencer and duality.

When there is no appearance of duality there is only everythingness which = nothingness as above.

That nothingness is the same state entered during general anaesthetic.

We don't come "out of" nothingness and "go back" into it (there is nowhere to come out of or go to), we are all currently as we speak in a state of something like general anaesthetic. That is the ground, the foundation. We are always nothing, but something appears, and when that something appears duality appears and then it is possible for there to be an experience of something, and thus an experiencer.

Who is looking through your eyes, hearing through your ears? The Absolute ("God") is. Not you AND God. Just God. You are an illusion, there's no such thing as a "you". There is only God.

Where are your dead loved ones? Your dead loved ones are looking through your eyes. They are God, and so are "you". What you call "you" is merely something God experiences, God tastes with your tongue, feels your emotions, smells with your nose. God experiences your brain and hence your memories and body and so on. All of these things are inside of God and made of God...

How could God possibly create something outside of itself or with anything but itself? There is no space so nowhere else to place anything. There is nothing else in existence so it can only craft something with itself.

There is nothing else at all.

Edited June 10, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[Endangered-EGO]

Why make it so complicated. Just call it an experience even though there is no experienceR. Is a change in perception not an experience?  I kind of get what you're pointing to, but it probably doesn't help those who haven't had a significant awakening yet.

 

Nothingness transcends time. So there's no going  in and out because the dream structure transcends the dream time and dream causality. However, from the subjective perspective the dream starts and the dream ends once you're back into the dream.

Knowing that you're dreaming transcends the content of a dream but it still happens within a dream. You know that you know within a dream. So it's still something you go through within the dream. You can't lucid dream without a dream. Call it a meta experience then...

I don't mean to attack your hypothesis of god, but this is more confusing than useful. It's describing the moon instead of pointing the finger towards the moon.

 

I also don't like refering to awakening as God, because people have misconstrued God and have underlying ideas about her.

(I say "her" deliberately misleading to confuse people so that they get that God doesn't have any attributes [like gender].)

[RMQualtrough]

@Endangered-EGO I don't want to call it experience because it's not. Experience is something that appears in God. Experiencing is a property of God that exists everywhere experience does.

There's no experience of experienceR without experience existing.

I also don't like the term God but there isn't any other but maybe the "Monad" lmfao, or the Absolute I guess?

 

[The Buddha]

It is funny how u are trying to create a duality in your non-dual model.

In fact, this morning I had my first non-dual experience were I left this reality and went like the default screen of existance, like the insert disc in a launcher of videogames. And I was very aware that I was the one experiencing and the experience itself and it felt very natural. I was a part and the whole for being able to in fact experience in the first place in that deeper level of the fabric of reality. Then very funny, the disc was inserted and I am at this reality and I'm enjoying it pretty much, it's a good game honestly.

[Tim R]

You never left nonduality. "Experience" only appears as duality so long as you insist on there being "experience". You don't need to enter general anesthetic or deep sleep or whatever.

Here it is.

[The Buddha]

@Tim R Very good point about breaking the duality between experience and non-experience. However, breaking or understanding are more dualities. I love how misterious and incomprehensible non-duality is.

[RMQualtrough]

4 minutes ago, Tim R said:

You never left nonduality. "Experience" only appears as duality so long as you insist on there being "experience". You don't need to enter general anesthetic or deep sleep or whatever.

Here it is.

We are there it's the ground. Experience always appears as duality. In deep mystical states you might be nothingness in a white void. There is experience of white, and hence something observing white. Still an appearance of duality even though the boundary of self is subjectively gone and the white is "you".

Cessation is nonduality. That is where we reside always.

Edited June 10, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[Mason Riggle]

It's possible to be the one thing there is. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[impulse9]

Duality and non-duality are all words, symbols, mouth noises. The concepts we invent fall far short from the reality they are supposed to be describing.

[Endangered-EGO]

@RMQualtrough That's why, confronted with questions that ask towards things in thst direction, zen masters just answer "Mu", because no words can describe it. Why use words to describe the meta-experience if words or communication is part of the dream. You see how senseless that is?

 

A lot of people here, including me, get what you're saying because we have experienced IT. But  that's like explaining color to people who have eyes and expecting blind people to have an idea. But the map is not the territory.

 

It only makes sense if you have experienced it. Which means that only those who know it, get what you say. If you say you can't experience it,you only confuse those who havent awoken (had an experience of it) yet.

 

In fact: something is happening, you transcend reality, and there's nothing wrong with calling it an "experience" or a change in perception, because from the dreaming self, that's what it is. 

 

Saying these things is going to confuse people who havent got it, and people who have been through it will translate it into concepts. So why bother

[RMQualtrough]

45 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

It's possible to be the one thing there is. 

We are the one thing there is, there's no way we couldn't be. We always are. Everything is in fact... But when experience exists, the appearance of duality appears. Toad venom white void = white + something observing the white.

When the white is gone there is nothing to observe and hence no observING, and there is the Absolute ground. That is the total return to the Absolute.

We exist as localizations, when a localization ends, it is no longer localized but everywhere and everything. If seeing were not localized there'd be no seeing possible. Like the beach dream, as soon as you see any part of beach there is the observed (the beach) and an observer. When duality is gone, there is no observed, so no observer, hence Nothingness.

When in that white void, the whiteness is the final bastion of this localization. White ends and it ends. And you are then Everything, but it's experienced as Nothing like a time gap while under general anaesthetic.

Edited June 10, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[RMQualtrough]

@Endangered-EGO I can't tell if what I'm writing could be understood only by people who've had mystical experiences. I do try to write things down both for my own understanding (digging into experiences I've had to understand them and the implications etc), but also in a way that literally anyone could understand.

I hope that people understand that without observed there is no observing.

I feel the nondual experiences take you right to the cliff edge but not over. Because if you went over, all localization would end.

Where is red when nothing perceives it? In the All. Where does each part of our localization go and return from as we venture into and out of these states? Back to the All.

The core of what we are, we're always there, but this is a localization right now. The thing that is there is what sees through our eyes and hears through our ears.

I imagine an onion, and we are the layers built on the onion. Really it would be the total inverse because we're inside it, but being able to say "onion core" seems more explanatory.

Edited June 10, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[The0Self]

2 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

When duality stops existing, experience cannot occur.

Yes technically, but there is already no duality or experience, really.

[Moksha]

Localization doesn't exclude realization. It is possible to see the sameness in everything, and in every nothing, even with the dream. That seeing is the actuality of awakening.

[RMQualtrough]

@Moksha Indeed, otherwise I'd never have ended up here haha! But I think in total truth and reality, where we are venturing is basically onto the cliff edge. We are toeing the line but we never go over it.

The user @BipolarGrowth has spoke of cessation experiences. I think that is what's over the cliff edge. ALL localization ceases, so then there is only nothing (actually everything, but that can't be experienced in nonduality because there is no observed to allow for observing).

[Endangered-EGO]

21 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

@Endangered-EGO feel the nondual experiences take you right to the cliff edge but not over. Because if you went over, all localization would end.

I imagine an onion, and we are the layers built on the onion. Really it would be the total inverse because we're inside it, but being able to say "onion core" seems more explanatory.

Ok, I get what you're saying.

 

We are not the layers of the onion, whe are the dream/structure of the onion.

 

If you think you can only edge nonduality but not enter it, then you haven't had a real full glimpse yet. Because once you are there there's just nothingness, the dream, divinity or oneness.

 

You can be in 100% nonduality. I have had glimpses of it and I guarantee it. Ask enlightened people, they are going to tell you, you're all the way IT. Even the glimpses show you that it's no edge its IT. There no closeness or approximation to it. You can be full INTO it.

It's absolute, I can't communicate it, it's absolute. Once you're close, merge with it, let it fill everything, surrender to it or whatever your spiritual practice tells you. 

 

I promise, ask enlightened people (I'm not I just had glimpses of a part of "IT")

[Moksha]

2 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

@Moksha Indeed, otherwise I'd never have ended up here haha! But I think in total truth and reality, where we are venturing is basically onto the cliff edge. We are toeing the line but we never go over it.

You don't have to jump off the cliff to realize that you are only jumping into yourself 

[RMQualtrough]

@Endangered-EGO I think the nondual experience we can have is Nirodhi Samapatti, hence I tagged @BipolarGrowth . I think cessation = total merger with the one.

I think as long as there is observed, there is observer. Whether it's a blank white void or w.e. else that may be. That is an illusion of duality, but much much closer to apparent truth than we have ever been before. But still a perception of nonduality.

I think one tiptoe step farther and you fall off that cliff. All localization ends and you just cease to be and come to some time later like Nirodhi Samapatti.

Ironically the experience is actually non-experience... There is no experience of non-experience.

Edited June 10, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[Endangered-EGO]

@RMQualtrough have you experienced the nothingness? Dissolution or cessation is very different imo.

[VeganAwake]

It seems to be hidden by being Everything but "you" are looking for a something.

And everything cannot be found because it's already the case, as in it was never missing.

Nobody looks for something within Everything and then says why can't I find it.