What is the ultimate fate of reality?

[LastThursday]

47 minutes ago, Someone here said:

How can there be consciousness without an observer? 

Aha! How can there be an observer without consciousness? How can there be an observer without the observed? Are you the observer ever able to separate yourself from the observed?

 

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

What's your definition of consciousness?   

 

Consciousness can never be described as anything other than itself.  Because saying its one thing over another is finite, and held within Consciousness.

Consciousness IS!

And what IS Isness?  

Well that takes awakening.

Language cannot go any farther.

 

[Someone here]

3 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

I'm trying to help 'you' notice that there already isn't a 'you' in which could die.... and it's not working very well not surprisingly LOL

Of course there is me. You are just confused about what the  'me' is.  The ego mind is just identification with thoughts. But you are consciousness itself. Obviously you are conscious. Otherwise you can't have this conversation. 

3 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

THIS is already death because the 'you' that starts forming around the age of three is an illusion.

Have you heard the phrase: to die before you die.....

That phrase isn't talking about body/mind organism death, it's pointing to the collapse of the illusory entity that claims itself as the body/mind organism.

I'm not talking about ego death. That's peanuts compared to physical death.

It's actually good that you distinguish between the two. I've had many ego deaths before. The issue here is bigger than realizing there is no separate self inside the organism. I've realized that zillions of times to the point it's no big issue anymore. But the fate of the organism as a whole as long as all of it (all of reality). And back to your earliest comment was about death of organism.. And you didn't die as an organism to tell us (there won't be the slightest remembrance of existence) . To that point i said (you don't know.

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Someone here

[snowyowl]

33 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I'm not talking about ego death. That's peanuts compared to physical death.

So how do you know this either without experiencing physical death? I agree it sure looks that way to those of us who are alive and experiencing the death of someone else. But from the pov of the dying person, don't they have to let go of everything including thoughts whether the process is good or bad?  Heck, I just fell in the same trap myself, assuming I can know something outside my direct experience of the Now  

[Someone here]

@snowyowl well it depends of course on how does one die. Suffocating to death doesn't sound like a pleasant experience. Although you can die without any melodrama (like dying while sleeping). 

But the moment of death..that one final moment is when the levels of fear reach infinity. 

[Breakingthewall]

I once had a kind of dream, after doing psychedelic the day before, about death. the person, me, with all its characteristics, attributes, memories, detached itself, and with all serenity dissolved into nothingness forever, as if it had never existed, and emptiness remained. only that I really was the emptiness, absolutely void, I always was and the person never existed. I think death could be like this

[snowyowl]

@Someone here  you could be right anyway, I've heard of people having crazy experiences with fear & anxiety, like out of body experiences and depersonalisation - perhaps it's a kind of defence mechanism.  Materialists go on to say that near-death-experiences like OOBEs,  going down a tunnel, seeing the bright white light, extremely loving beings etc is a result of the brain chemistry going haywire when close to physical death. Depends if consciousness is limited to the brain, I can't prove that to you either way.

[Igor82]

There is some sort of design here. You can't have heaven without the possibility of hell. Hell will thus be created in all possible manifestations, contextualized with an infinite design of infinite love.

Everything will happen. As anything is possible, given the design. 

[Mafortu]

infinite possibilities mean infinite homework

[VeganAwake]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

Of course there is me. You are just confused about what the  'me' is.  The ego mind is just identification with thoughts. But you are consciousness itself. Obviously you are conscious. Otherwise you can't have this conversation. 

I'm not talking about ego death. That's peanuts compared to physical death.

It's actually good that you distinguish between the two. I've had many ego deaths before. The issue here is bigger than realizing there is no separate self inside the organism. I've realized that zillions of times to the point it's no big issue anymore. But the fate of the organism as a whole as long as all of it (all of reality). And back to your earliest comment was about death of organism.. And you didn't die as an organism to tell us (there won't be the slightest remembrance of existence) . To that point i said (you don't know.

 

Lets look at it bro.

Do you remember being conscious prior to birth?

Do you remember anything before the age of about two or three?

If you're honest the answer is a 100% no I do not, unless you have some kind of mental disorder.

In that sense it seems like a pretty safe assumption to assume that after that body/mind organism dies nothing goes on existing.(Awakening or not)

The biggest problem for the sense of self is death. It simply cannot comprehend or fathom the idea of itself not being there...it's the most important self on the planet don't you know.

This is of course why religion/spiritual materialism is so popular.... it feeds perfectly into the sense of self's delusions of eternal life. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

12 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Do you remember being conscious prior to birth?

If you reach a state of meditation of total silence, empty, you will see that this is what there was before your birth, and you will understand how, after your birth, that emptiness begins to fill with images, appearance. that emptiness before birth does not pass, it is the same all the time, and it will always remain the same. you say there is nothing after death? You are right, since that void is nothing, but if you become familiar with it, you will see that that void is you, and that all the images that fill it are nothing, appearance without reality.  only the void is 

The issue of spirituality, imo, is not just understanding that the ego is illusory, it is knowing the void and beginning to understand it, it is a non-conceptual understanding that I think can be much deeper. understand that there is no I is not the end, it is only the beginning

Edited May 13, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[Javfly33]

12 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Lets look at it bro.

Do you remember being conscious prior to birth?

Do you remember anything before the age of about two or three?

If you're honest the answer is a 100% no I do not, unless you have some kind of mental disorder.

In that sense it seems like a pretty safe assumption to assume that after that body/mind organism dies nothing goes on existing.(Awakening or not)

The biggest problem for the sense of self is death. It simply cannot comprehend or fathom the idea of itself not being there...it's the most important self on the planet don't you know.

This is of course why religion/spiritual materialism is so popular.... it feeds perfectly into the sense of self's delusions of eternal life. 

 

 

 

 

 

You were NEVER BORN lmao ?

You can't imagine how deep this goes man ?

You are the universe how are you going to be 'born'?

To be born there must be a duality between that which gets born (sorry for my english I don't know how to use born in past tense Lol), and to the place where you get born.

But since you are the universe/One (non duality) you can not be born. You can only divide yourself to make the appearance that you get born.

And you do that by imagining a human being and a an apparent 'physical reality'. Then yeah, the imaginary human being does get born. But of pure imagination of yourself. 

 

[Chris365]

14 hours ago, Someone here said:

But the moment of death..that one final moment is when the levels of fear reach infinity. 

Fear is of the ego, in your many ego deaths, did you feel any fear?

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, Javfly33 said:

You were NEVER BORN lmao ?

Exactly, You is an illusion that seems to arise around age 2 or 3.

You can't imagine how deep this goes man ?

imagination seems to occur, it just doesn't belong to anyone.

You are the universe how are you going to be 'born'?

who is the universe? There isn't anyone.

To be born there must be a duality between that which gets born (sorry for my english I don't know how to use born in past tense Lol), and to the place where you get born.

imagination believing something seems dualistic, does not constitute real separation. It's an illusion of separation.(illusion meaning something that seems real, but ultimately was never the case)

But since you are the universe/One (non duality) you can not be born. You can only divide yourself to make the appearance that you get born.

who is the universe? there isn't a you. No one divides anything because it's an illusion.

And you do that by imagining a human being and a an apparent 'physical reality'. Then yeah, the imaginary human being does get born. But of pure imagination of yourself. 

The illusion that someone imagines separation is just more illusion. The separation never occurred because the one imagining separation isn't real.

 

[Someone here]

15 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

In that sense it seems like a pretty safe assumption to assume that after that body/mind organism dies nothing goes on existing.(Awakening or not)

Thanks for calling it "assumption".

It's just an assumption at the end of the day you just don't know . You can't claim it for certain. 

15 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Do you remember being conscious prior to birth?

Do you remember anything before the age of about two or three?

If you're honest the answer is a 100% no I do not, unless you have some kind of mental disorder.

Actually.. I have no idea if 'birth' was even real. Notice that your entire past is a thought you are having. Memories are just images in your mind. You see I don't take this stuff for granted. Lol 

But In any case.. No I don't recall anything around The age of two or three. But that does not mean I wasn't conscious back then. It just means  that I don't recall. And that's a different thing. What if I lost  all memories of my entire life.. Does that mean I wasn't conscious yesterday just because I can't recall it? 

Obviously your kids are conscious since the day they were born. They are just not self-conscious. Which means they are not conscious that they are conscious. They haven't developed an ego yet. As I said you are pure consciousness itself. Not the the separate sense of self that develops around the age of three. Hope it's clear for you now. 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Someone here

[Javfly33]

21 minutes ago, Someone here said:

. Which means they are not conscious that they are conscious. They haven't developed an ego yet. As I said you are pure consciousness itself. Not the the separate sense of self that develops around the age of three. Hope it's clear for you now. 

 

Exactly 

[VeganAwake]

45 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Thanks for calling it "assumption".

It's just an assumption at the end of the day you just don't know . You can't claim it for certain. 

Actually.. I have no idea if 'birth' was even real. Notice that your entire past is a thought you are having. Memories are just images in your mind. You see I don't take this stuff for granted. Lol 

But In any case.. No I don't recall anything around The age of two or three. But that does not mean I wasn't conscious back then. It just means  that I don't recall. And that's a different thing. What if I lost  all memories of my entire life.. Does that mean I wasn't conscious yesterday just because I can't recall it? 

Obviously your kids are conscious since the day they were born. They are just not self-conscious. Egighv means they are not conscious that they are conscious. They haven't developed an ego yet. As I said you are pure consciousness itself. Not the the separate sense of self that develops around the age of three. Hope it's clear for you now. 

 

 

I understand everything you're saying.

Another way to explain this whole apparent debacle:

The human is not much different than the animal.

The main difference with the human is that it appears its brain evolved faster and or differently for reasons unknown. 

This evolved brain of the human now has the ability to become an entity unto itself (the ME). It has essentially evolved past basic survival strategy like that of the animal.(its not good or bad)

This illusion of separation creates an illusory problem. That problem being: I feel separate from existence, like something is missing and needs to be found. But this problem is founded within a misunderstanding.... or like Jim Newman says, "a psychosomatic misunderstanding".

So the human spends its life running around in a misunderstanding or dream story of sorts, trying to find something that was never missing. It tries to find something to fix the unreal problem of feeling separate ie: Materialism: money; possessions; hot hubby/wiffey. Spiritual Materialism: Religion; spirituality; Adviata(non-duality).

Here is an essay from Tony Parsons:

The Story of Me

 

"All there is is wholeness . . . boundless energy appearing as everything . . . the sky, trees, feelings, thoughts, whatever. It is the mystery of no thing simultaneously being everything.

There is nothing apart from the boundless everything and yet, because it is free, it can appear to be separate from itself . . . it can appear to be the story of me. There is nothing right or wrong in that appearance which is wholeness apparently happening.

Contracted energy seems to arise in the human being and create a sense of separation out of which arises a unique sense of identity . . . a self consciousness. The me is born and the story of me seems to begin. Me is the story and the story is me and one cannot exist without the other. They both only appear and function in a dualistic subject object reality. Everything seems to be personally experienced as a series of events in real time happening to a real me. Within that story time, journey, purpose and free will and choice seem to be real.

This sense of separation is not just an idea, a thought or a belief. It is a contracted energy embodied in the whole organism which influences every experience. As a consequence the me experiences a tree, the sky, another person, a thought or a feeling through a veil of separation. It is as though me is a something and everything else is lots of other separate somethings happening to me. What arises from this once removed sense is a subtle feeling of dissatisfaction. A feeling that something is lost or hidden.

For most people this sense of dissatisfaction is not that apparent, and because they believe they are individuals with free will and choice they seem motivated to try and create a successful story . . . good relationships, good health, wealth, personal power or whatever else.

However, for some there is a greater sensitivity about something else that seems to be missing. This feeling generates a longing for a deeper sense of fulfilment. There can be an investigation into religion, therapy or the meaning of enlightenment. Because the me has become convinced that it has the means to influence its story, it also assumes that it can find deeper fulfilment through its own choice, determination and action.

The me may, for instance, go to a priest or a therapist or a teacher of enlightenment in order to find what it thinks it needs.

Often because the me feels it has lost something, there can be a sense of inadequacy and so what is pursued is a teaching that satisfies the need to do something which will bring about a personal transformation and make the me worthy of fulfilment. All of this activity is apparently happening within the story of me which is functioning in an artificially dualistic reality. So me is searching in the finite for that which is infinite. It is a something looking for another something, and what it really longs for remains unobtainable by already being everything. It is rather like trying to catch air with a butterfly net. It isn’t difficult, it is wonderfully impossible. The essential futility of that searching inevitably fuels the sense of a me who feels even more unworthy and separate.

However, in the seeking activity there can be experiences along the way that encourage the me to search further and try harder. Personal therapy can bring a transient sense of personal balance in the story. Practices like meditation can bring a state of peace or silence. Self enquiry can bring an apparently progressive experience of understanding and strengthened awareness. But for awareness to function it needs something apart for it to be aware of. Awareness simply feeds separation, and a state of detachment can arise and be mistaken for enlightenment. All of these states come and go within the story of me.

The basis of all teaching of becoming enlightened is the idea that a change of belief or experience can lead to a personal knowing of oneness, self realisation or of discovering your own true nature. The whole investment in a progressive path goes on feeding the story of me attaining something. Even the suggestion of personal surrender or acceptance can be initially attractive and bring a satisfying state . . . for a while. There are many so-called non-dual 'teachings' which feed the story of me becoming liberated.

However, the oneness that is longed for is boundless and free. It cannot be grasped or even approached. Nor is there anything that would need to be done or changed or made better than that which is already everything.

The me experience can be very convincing because “the world” it lives in seems to be dominated by lots of me’s in lots of stories. But the me construct is inconstant and has no foundation. All of the me story is only a dance of wholeness which is without significance or purpose.

A deep and uncompromising exposure of the artificial construct of separation and the story of me can loosen the constraints that keep it locked in place and reveal the way in which seeking can only reinforce the dilemma. The apparent sense of separation, however, is at its essence an energetically contracted energy which no amount of conceptual clarity will ever undo.

When there is an openness to the possibility of that which is beyond self-seeking, then it seems that the contracted energy can evaporate into the boundless freedom which it already is. And still this is only another story which attempts to point to and describe a total paradox . . . the apparent end of something that was never real . . . the story of me.

 

All there is, is boundless freedom"

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by VeganAwake