The Heart Centric Perspective on Veganism

[Windappreciator]

@Goldzilla Look, I apologize for having pained you. I should have reacted better. It's unfortunate it got this way.

[Scholar]

21 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@impulse9

   That's fine. Just from your reply, I know that in terms of mindfulness and observation, I am leagues above you. Don't take this as an insult, it is just the difference in psychological, spiritual development and life experiences.

   I hope you find peace with not just the suffering of animals, but of plants, and be able to understand, from mind to becoming/being level, why they do it, and integrate them. They need some love too. Peace.

Oh man is it cringe when people do this.

 

By the way if you care about plants you should be vegan, because guess what the animals eat we consume. Plants.

 

People in this forum, I swear to God.

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

Oh man is it cringe when people do this.

 

By the way if you care about plants you should be vegan, because guess what the animals eat we consume. Plants.

 

People in this forum, I swear to God.

   By your logic, if I care about people, I should consume other people, because guess what predatory animals eat sometimes, a human they ambushed successfully, and guess what plants and fungi consume? Remains of dead organisms too, including a buried body of a human. Therefore, when there's not much plants and animals, and too many humans, I should eat them because I care about them and am a humanitarian, and because that's the situation of the world. That's your logic. That's the real cringe.

   Please develop your cognition, morality, values system and get a diversity of life experiences first to my level, before demonising me, because it is clear I am more developed than you, thank you very much.

[Scholar]

26 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Scholar

   By your logic, if I care about people, I should consume other people, because guess what predatory animals eat sometimes, a human they ambushed successfully, and guess what plants and fungi consume? Remains of dead organisms too, including a buried body of a human. Therefore, when there's not much plants and animals, and too many humans, I should eat them because I care about them and am a humanitarian, and because that's the situation of the world. That's your logic. That's the real cringe.

   Please develop your cognition, morality, values system and get a diversity of life experiences first to my level, before demonising me, because it is clear I am more developed than you, thank you very much.

You shouldn't pretend like you are understanding my logic, or logic in general, if it is clearly the case that you do not. What you conclude about the little strawmans you have created in your head has nothing to do with the silliness of your own position.

If you have a universal care, as you proposed, and care about both animals and plants, the logical conclusion would be to be vegan, as it reduces both the death and suffering in animals aswell as plants. How you came to conclude that this would lead you to consume humans is beyond me. But I'm sure your mind can do more mental gymnastics in an attempt to weasel itself out of this hole you have digged yourself into.

 

Please stop with this nonsense that you are more developed than anyone, so far you have demonstrated the opposite. The fact that you unironically bring this up in a discussion to give your nonsense arguments some sort of authority is just utterly pathetic. If your reasoning can't stand on it's own, no amount of spiritual posturing will change that.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Scholar

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

6 minutes ago, Scholar said:

You shouldn't pretend like you are understanding my logic, or logic in general, if it is clearly the case that you do not. What you conclude about the little strawmans you have created in your head has nothing to do with the silliness of your own position.

If you have a universal care, as you proposed, and care about both animals and plants, the logical conclusion would be to be vegan, as it reduces both the death and suffering in animals aswell as plants. How you came to conclude that this would lead you to consume humans is beyond me. But I'm sure your mind can do more mental gymnastics in an attempt to weasel itself out of this hole you have digged yourself into.

 

Please stop with this nonsense that you are more developed than anyone, so far you have demonstrated the opposite. The fact that you unironically bring this up in a discussion to give your nonsense arguments some sort of authority is just utterly pathetic. If your reasoning can't stand on it's own, no amount of spiritual posturing will change that.

   I've taken your logic to the extreme to show you something of it, but that's fine. Some people need to develop slower than others. gl with your life.

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Scholar

   I've taken your logic to the extreme to show you something of it, but that's fine. Some people need to develop slower than others. gl with your life.

It seems like your cognition is so impaired that you haven't noticed that I am working within your own framework, so by showing me the "logical extreme" of "my" position, you have actually done this to yourself. But I see you are unable to respond to anything I am saying and just continue with your spiritual grandstanding, because that's the essence of high consciousness isn't it. Telling everyone how much more developed you are.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Scholar

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

12 minutes ago, Scholar said:

It seems like your cognition is so impaired that you haven't noticed that I am working within your own framework, so by showing me the "logical extreme" of "my" position, you have actually done this to yourself. But I see you are unable to respond to anything I am saying and just continue with your spiritual grandstanding, because that's the essence of high consciousness isn't it. Telling everyone how much more developed you are.

   Because that is the truth, relative to how limited the communication is through texting.

   Nope, you just conflated the essance of high consciousness for total external factors, when it is part of the development process and integration. But please continue rationalizing me into a rubric, when we should be developing, integrating and finding peace with the world and people, no matter how imperfect they are, and not judging them for their positions...like you are projecting to me at the moment. However, I will cease this interaction with you, as it is unproductive. Bye.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Danioover9000

[Scholar]

6 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Scholar

   Because that is the truth, relative to how limited the communication is through texting.

   Nope, you just conflated the essance of high consciousness for total external factors, when it is part of the development process and integration. But please continue rationalizing me into a rubric, when we should be developing, integrating and finding peace with the world and people, no matter how imperfect they are, and not judging them for their positions...like you are projecting to me at the moment. However, I will cease this interaction with you, as it is unproductive. Bye.

Dude you have literally created a brain rot with this mentality and ideology of yours. Any time someone engages with your arguments you fall back onto your developmental superiority, which is how you justify to yourself that you can disengage and actually not tackle any of the problems that have been pointed out to you.

You don't even heed your own words which is the biggest irony of all of this. You have not once here shown any attempt to actually try to understand the perspectives of others, you presume that you already know everything, and even worse you must believe that how you have handled this actually in any shape or form contributed to harmony.

My dude, you are so unconscious that you do not even realize how smug it sounds when you tell people they need to develope and that you are so much further ahead of them, and that this will have actually a completely negative effect on them rather than what you pretend you seek to achieve.

Development, peace and integration my ass.

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

6 hours ago, Scholar said:

Dude you have literally created a brain rot with this mentality and ideology of yours. Any time someone engages with your arguments you fall back onto your developmental superiority, which is how you justify to yourself that you can disengage and actually not tackle any of the problems that have been pointed out to you.

You don't even heed your own words which is the biggest irony of all of this. You have not once here shown any attempt to actually try to understand the perspectives of others, you presume that you already know everything, and even worse you must believe that how you have handled this actually in any shape or form contributed to harmony.

My dude, you are so unconscious that you do not even realize how smug it sounds when you tell people they need to develope and that you are so much further ahead of them, and that this will have actually a completely negative effect on them rather than what you pretend you seek to achieve.

Development, peace and integration my ass.

   To be clear again, for the final time, I don't want to debate you, nor continue discussing, so please disengage yourself from me, and moderate yourself thank you very much.  

[SgtPepper]

On 8/30/2021 at 5:12 PM, Windappreciator said:

@SgtPepper You need to update that nutrition data of yours once and for all, my dude.

It's really just wrong.

Am I incorrect in saying you likely believe that

Omega 3 can be satisfied with ALA in walnuts, flax/chia seeds. Our bodies convert it into DHA & EPA

Vitamin A is satisfied via carrots, sweet potatoes and more, our body takes beta-carotene and converts it into vitamin A?

B12 - just take a supplement.

Iodine - eat seaweed, or supplemental salt.

Non-heme iron - our body adjusts to it? 

Not sure where you stand on other amino acids like  taurine, creatine, and more, but that our body creates sufficient amount? 

 

 

[Scholar]

12 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Scholar

   To be clear again, for the final time, I don't want to debate you, nor continue discussing, so please disengage yourself from me, and moderate yourself thank you very much.  

With not wanting to debate me you actually mean you want to grandstand with your supposed spiritual development rather than actually engage and test these ideas you have proposed, most of which fall apart even on a surface level.

[Fleetinglife]

How can you free someone like me who loves the smell and taste of meat and doesn't get nearly the same taste bud enjoyment and pleasure when eating vegetables and fruits? Honestly asking I've been preferring and enjoying meat more since I was a kid and would sometimes even vomit when eating some fruit. I don't know what would have to happen in my head and senses to let go needing the taste of meat at least once a day or two.

[Scholar]

30 minutes ago, Fleetinglife said:

How can you free someone like me who loves the smell and taste of meat and doesn't get nearly the same taste bud enjoyment and pleasure when eating vegetables and fruits? Honestly asking I've been preferring and enjoying meat more since I was a kid and would sometimes even vomit when eating some fruit. I don't know what would have to happen in my head and senses to let go needing the taste of meat at least once a day or two.

You should truly contemplate how a pedophile must feel, because you are in a similar situation. What would you recommend to someone who can only get sexual gratification from children? How would you want them to go about not engaging in something they know would lead to the abuse of other individuals?

[Fleetinglife]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

You should truly contemplate how a pedophile must feel, because you are in a similar situation. What would you recommend to someone who can only get sexual gratification from children? How would you want them to go about not engaging in something they know would lead to the abuse of other individuals?

What if 98.5% of my environment are pedophiles and the sexual molestation of children is a culturally accepted norm and is even practiced in a boisterous manner, similar to some Afghan tribes in rural areas of Afghanistan practicing bacha baozi* (sorry in advance if this is not the correct way to spell this practice) i.e. sexual relations and intimacy with young underage boys and something also practiced in some parts of the Afghan National Army under US Army watch, a practice which the Taliban vow to eliminate altogether.

What can I say to them if pedophilia is such a culturally programmed and self-evident norm that is so normal it isn't even questioned and is intertwined with their survival, approval, and validation in society so much that wouldn't come off as me lecturing them as a vocal minority trying to impose something that directly contradicts and threatens their basic lifestyle that is so intertwined with their survival and the survival of the whole societies recognizable culture as whole that they would literally lose a part of their culture and their society won't be the same at all from that point on and thoroughly unrecognizable to their former members? 

If other abuses that are even more heinous already rampant in that society that are abusing and minimizing and hurting the survival chances and wellbeing chances of other beings why single out this as the most urgent one when there are things that are even more heinous happening in that society, that are heinous enough that they warrant the awareness and consciousness of that society as actually being something so heinous enough that needs to be overcome and fixed while they don't recognize this as being heinous and I ram their heads of this to them not so heinous issue being more heinous than by their consciousness standards much more heinous issues such as for example murder, war, poverty, famine, rape, natural disasters, demographic decline, diseases, etc. What if alleviating human suffering and poverty is their first priority that needs to be raised to a sufficient enough recognition and alleviation level to realize animal suffering is part of that equation in some aspects since humans in society firstly and foremostly care about eliminating the suffering that plagues them and the society that they live in in order for them to develop enough compassion to consider the suffering of other beings that they inflict upon and/or benefit from to reduce their own suffering. That is the anthropocentric mind of most people. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Fleetinglife

[impulse9]

I have a much better analogy for you. Smoking. When you're a smoker, after years or decades of conditioning yourself through smoking regularly, you'll learn to love the smoke. You will really find it pleasant, tasteful, gratifying, a lot of good qualities. You will even find it hard to understand why people think smoke smells bad. You've created a filter in your brain that converts all the nastiness of smoking, into something that's perceived as pleasant. If - as a heavy smoker - you then successfully quit smoking, after a month, maybe two, you will notice something curious. You will notice that smoke that you used to think smells nice, gains an unearthly stench. It almost makes you gag, that's how vile and foul it is. Maybe you take one toke of a cigarette a few months into being smoke free, and you may find the experience absolutely gut wrenchingly horrible. It will make your stomach turn, your head feel funny, and your lungs feel under attack from a nasty, harsh agent. You will find all those supposed benefits you used to believe smoke possesses have turned upside down, and now all you see is a crappy habit that makes you ill, makes you smell incredibly bad, makes your health worse, makes you cough all the time, and addicts you so you can't even enjoy a single morning without it.

You know where I'm going with this by now. If you quit meat, the same will eventually happen, how long it takes depends on how much conditioning to like meat you've gone through. The same happens after quitting cheese too. I've been off cheese for a few weeks now and I've noticed that curiously, I really dislike the smell of cheese now. It's almost like it contains something nasty. Basically it's all conditioning. I'm not saying that raw salad will start tasting like a premium snack after you quit meat, but I can assure you that vegan recipes are orders of magnitude tastier than anything the animal product world has to offer, which actually seems bland and uninspired by comparison. Not to mention disgusting, I've never understood how people can cut meat, stuff a dead chicken, and things like that. I can understand something like that in a life and death situation but doing these things off your own volition, in the current year, is nothing other than conditioning. Your parents said it's normal, and their parents said it's normal, so now it's normal. Well it's not normal, it's wicked. This behavior does not belong in the space age, age where we can literally create meat in labs.

The one place where I'm still in touch with meat is the food I buy for my pets, which I'm glad I don't have to manually prepare so I fully acknowledge I'm a little hypocritical here. But I can't see the good in turning my dog into a vegetarian either. As for a civilized species like humans are supposed to be, I see no excuse whatsoever to perpetuate this cycle of stupidity. Veganism has been making massive gains all across the world, if you look just 20-30 years ago, it was almost unheard of unless you were part of some very specific community. Now almost every city has a million vegan places. It's going mainstream like it or not. And eventually, maybe in the far future but hopefully far sooner than that, our civilization will look at eating meat as the barbaric and uncivilized practice that it really is. Not to mention it's one of the primary sources of pollution and wasted food.

[Fleetinglife]

23 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

You've created a filter in your brain that converts all the nastiness of smoking, into something that's perceived as pleasant. If - as a heavy smoker - you then successfully quit smoking, after a month, maybe two, you will notice something curious. You will notice that smoke that you used to think smells nice, gains an unearthly stench. It almost makes you gag, that's how vile and foul it is. Maybe you take one toke of a cigarette a few months into being smoke free, and you may find the experience absolutely gut wrenchingly horrible.

 

43 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

If you quit meat, the same will eventually happen, how long it takes depends on how much conditioning to like meat you've gone through.

I've adored eating meat since early childhood and would gag at eating fruit for some time. Eventually, I overcame this to more or less extent but still don't enjoy and sometimes still up until this day I even avoid eating fruit if I don't have to or don't really feel like it or feel disgusted by some of it. I had periods where eating meat wasn't so enticing and would prefer just eating some raw vegetables but those were rare and that at the time a 4-5 years ago when I attempted to go on a pseudo-vegan diet of sorts but wasn't ready for such a drastic commitment or transition at that time and I encountered resistance from getting support in this from my social environment, financial aid or advice how to make it cheap so I wouldn't buy meals that would exceed my meat consumption cost and adjusting this diet with meals I would eat together with my dad whom I still live with as well as my grandmother in a different apartment. I don't know I haven't experienced anything even close when it comes to my taste of meat during this period or in my lifetime though I occasionally had slight feelings of disgust when looking at meat during this pseudo attempt period. What you are basically describing for me is literally for me to go full circle from the beginnings of my early childhood inclinations and conditionings, where I would gag at fruit following unconsciously the pattern of my deceased mother who also loved to eat meat and not fruits so much and during her last days, would almost only exclusively eat meat when I was a kid and around here at that time, and to basically re-condition myself to start gaging at meat and not fruit. That would be quite a challenge and drastic lifestyle change and not to mention the social skepticism and stigma that it comes within a majority society like mine, where you need to justify and rationalize this to people on a personal level as to why you made the decision and not a social one or environmental one that they would see as you implicitly guilting them and advocating a certain lifestyle to them as a form of virtue signaling and moral superiority which would hurt their vanity, so you need to tread carefully there in order not to make enemies of them.

 

47 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

I'm not saying that raw salad will start tasting like a premium snack after you quit meat, but I can assure you that vegan recipes are orders of magnitude tastier than anything the animal product world has to offer, which actually seems bland and uninspired by comparison.

I don't know will never know I hadn't tried it and experimented with the diet that you are speaking about thoroughly and committedly of really wanting to become my lifestyle and a part of my identity of living. I guess I need to drop my meat taste addiction and lifestyle if I ever want to truly know how it tastes and feels like. Though it seems like psychological happiness and gratification deficiency and denial if I don't have my sandwiches in the morning. I don't know perhaps I will give this diet a go when I fix some of the other personal, family, and health problems that are pressing me and making me unhappy that I see as more prescient to my wellbeing and see later how many financial costs can I manage of such a diet.  Meat addiction weaning off is not my priority in regards to my wellbeing and would have to wait on my list until I fixed these or slightly alleviated these other aforementioned problems. 

 

1 hour ago, impulse9 said:

is nothing other than conditioning. Your parents said it's normal, and their parents said it's normal, so now it's normal. Well it's not normal, it's wicked. This behavior does not belong in the space age, age where we can literally create meat in labs.

Yeah its something like that for most people in the society that I live in inherited from their parents and their grandparent's traditions and habits that existed for bare survival purposes and had stuck with it, but this country is not nearly as industrial in its food production, export or import as some developed ones so people still here in rural areas rely on meat for survival purposes. And the space age is perhaps a phenomenon in America and some developed Western countries but not so much in Serbia in the Second still industrializing World. 

Anyways thanks for your advice, analogies, and encouragement about the process of weaning off the meat diet and transitioning to a vegan one. Greatly appreciate it and the kind, detailed response, and support. 

[Scholar]

15 hours ago, Fleetinglife said:

What if 98.5% of my environment are pedophiles and the sexual molestation of children is a culturally accepted norm and is even practiced in a boisterous manner, similar to some Afghan tribes in rural areas of Afghanistan practicing bacha baozi* (sorry in advance if this is not the correct way to spell this practice) i.e. sexual relations and intimacy with young underage boys and something also practiced in some parts of the Afghan National Army under US Army watch, a practice which the Taliban vow to eliminate altogether.

What can I say to them if pedophilia is such a culturally programmed and self-evident norm that is so normal it isn't even questioned and is intertwined with their survival, approval, and validation in society so much that wouldn't come off as me lecturing them as a vocal minority trying to impose something that directly contradicts and threatens their basic lifestyle that is so intertwined with their survival and the survival of the whole societies recognizable culture as whole that they would literally lose a part of their culture and their society won't be the same at all from that point on and thoroughly unrecognizable to their former members? 

If other abuses that are even more heinous already rampant in that society that are abusing and minimizing and hurting the survival chances and wellbeing chances of other beings why single out this as the most urgent one when there are things that are even more heinous happening in that society, that are heinous enough that they warrant the awareness and consciousness of that society as actually being something so heinous enough that needs to be overcome and fixed while they don't recognize this as being heinous and I ram their heads of this to them not so heinous issue being more heinous than by their consciousness standards much more heinous issues such as for example murder, war, poverty, famine, rape, natural disasters, demographic decline, diseases, etc. What if alleviating human suffering and poverty is their first priority that needs to be raised to a sufficient enough recognition and alleviation level to realize animal suffering is part of that equation in some aspects since humans in society firstly and foremostly care about eliminating the suffering that plagues them and the society that they live in in order for them to develop enough compassion to consider the suffering of other beings that they inflict upon and/or benefit from to reduce their own suffering. That is the anthropocentric mind of most people. 

You are externalizing this issue. You have asked in particular how you should solve this issue for yourself, as someone who is presumably conscious enough to understand that the culturally accepted norm that is being practiced is unjustified. Notice how you suddenly made it about convincing the masses. The question was how to convince yourself! Notice how the little devil in your mind is at work here to completely change the function of the conversation so as to avoid self-reflection.

 

How to convince the masses is a very different topic that is seperate from the question you have initially posed. So to recontextualize:

If you were a pedophile in a society where sexual torture and rape of children was the accepted norm, and that your consciousness and ethical sensitivity was above the level of the people in said society, how would you get yourself to motivate yourself to stop engaging in that kind of activity?

[Fleetinglife]

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

You have asked in particular how you should solve this issue for yourself, as someone who is presumably conscious enough to understand that the culturally accepted norm that is being practiced is unjustified.

 

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

The question was how to convince yourself!

I've answered it for myself on the trajectory on which I must go in the response to @impulse9 in the aforementioned response above your post.

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

Notice how the little devil in your mind is at work here to completely change the function of the conversation so as to avoid self-reflection.

I think it was a legitimate mental exercise as in the context where such evil is not seen as evil at all to convince and see for yourself that it is, in fact, evil and that people around you are unconsciously engaging in that activity since they were programmed by society and culture to find it enjoyable and to do so. A social determines much of your individual proclivities, opinions, attitudes, and habits, the sociologist Emil Durkheim called that a social fact - something that constrains and determines the possibilities and options of individual agency. When something becomes a stigma or taboo in society it becomes much easier to drop that activity, habit, or attitude for the sake of adopting and accommodating to the changing social environment and culture in order to survive and prosper in it. So the social is a kind of individual and vice versa, for most people

 

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

If you were a pedophile in a society where sexual torture and rape of children was the accepted norm, and that your consciousness and ethical sensitivity was above the level of the people in said society, how would you get yourself to motivate yourself to stop engaging in that kind of activity?

Recognize that it is hurting me and causing me suffering individually and broadly socially to society in the long run by having this practice that is embedded in hurting and exploiting other beings for the benefit of my survival and the survival of my environment.  Seeing that having that sort of diet is making me more happy and conscious and therefore reducing my suffering and unhappiness and that developing abstract compassion and care for such beings and acting upon them is making me more conscious and holistic towards my environment and the broader world. Extended ahimsa of sorts to the non-human world, giving a deeper appreciation and care for the world and reality as a whole. That is my answer to your question of how to motivate myself to drop this habit. Answer: To see for myself and experience that it will actually make me happier and satisfied with myself and life in general in the long run if I drop its self-gratification and survival coping and benefits in day-to-day life and survival. That is why suspect humans do anything and are motivated by anything, they counter-intuitively realize it will actually make their lives better and make them more satisfied and happier with their own lives and more at peace with it. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Fleetinglife

[Scholar]

1 hour ago, Fleetinglife said:

 That is why suspect humans do anything and are motivated by anything, they counter-intuitively realize it will actually make their lives better and make them more satisfied and happier with their own lives and more at peace with it. 

I think you are limiting yourself by holding onto an egoistic-altruism framework and choosing this one contracted lense to analyse human behaviour and the world. While this framework can be useful, it is also only one side of the coin. But more importantly it is merely a model, a model that if you engage with it by looking at it as if it were true, will shape your being and how your interact with the world.

 

See, if you engage in compassion with an attitude that it will serve yourself, you will never have true compassion, you will never have a true concern for the other. Your concern will, in practice, be fuel by your own selfishness. And while you will be simulating compassion and using the parts of your mind that generate genuine compassion, you will always remain and act from a particular sector of the mind.

See, fake compassion, or self-motivated compassion, is fundamentally not the same as true compassion, true Love. It will seem the same on the surface, but it will actually play out differently in practice. Because what if you do not benefit from not torturing babies? What if you benefit greatly from it? What would you do then?

Would you be able to sacrifice yourself on the cross and have the capacity to forgive those who are torturing and killing you, if all of your compassion was fundamentally of a self-serving nature, and that the way you have understood self-sacrifice was through a lense of selfishness?

 

What you propose might be a first stepping stone for an undeveloped mind, but it will not be enough for you to truly change, or for society to truly evolve. What it takes is grounding your values in not your own self-desires and benefit, but actually beginning to recognize the nature of your true self. That your desires are serving not your contracted self, but rather that they are an extention of the greater collective. That fundamentally, you are not doing everything to serve yourself, that this is only what it seemed like. That infact, you are the one who is subservient to desire. That desire is not yours, but rather that it is impartial, serving a greater need outside of yourself.

That you never were motivated to self-serve, but that you have always been motivated to serve the desires to which you are a slave. That from the beginning it was the other way around. That you did not use the world to serve you, that the world used you to serve itself, and that this is the genuine role of your being within this existence.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Scholar

[Windappreciator]

@SgtPepper

Like this is the type of shit that pisses me off. 

Don't fkn skew knowledge for your trash idea of this 'natural meat eating human'.

Grow some fkn balls to turn yourself to the truth.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Windappreciator