Who Are The Proud Boys?

[DLH]

The Proud Boys were emboldened by Trump’s words. Then, LGBTQ couples reclaimed the group’s hashtag.

(sorry, I don't know how to cut and paste the article title and pic. If someone can do that, it would be great!)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/10/05/proudboys-twitter-lgbtq-takei/

Now these boys should be proud of themselves!

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by DLH

[Willie]

Makes sense. COVID took away the LGBT community’s Pride events. This is a good way for gay men to take that back.

[Preety_India]

 

I just hate all this capitalist crap 

Gross.. 

 

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Socialist ideals are good, but ideals are not enough to make a thing fly. It needs to be practical too. A 1st grader cannot handle algebra. Most people are too selfish to handle socialism. So we need to work on the selfishness part.

So we don't need a communist revolution, but a hippie revolution. Hmm... where is Tim Leary? 

[StephenK]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

So we need to work on the selfishness part.

 

6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

So we don't need a communist revolution, but a hippie revolution. Hmm... where is Tim Leary? 

Yes. This is going to be Leo in a decade after getting in touch with his Russian roots and taking his love teachings to the next level ✌:

 

[dyslexicCnut]

10 hours ago, StephenK said:

It is certainly the case that slavery and socio-economic factors are not to blame and do not explain the entire picture. In the same way the sun does not cause the weather. This is just reality. 

11 hours ago, StephenK said:

 Note also that you've completely rejected the idea of genetics/epigenetics coming into play (which, strictly speaking, is part of the environment as well) which makes you blind to the effects of epigenetics and hence blind to reality. 

Haha, what a fun read. Wasn't expecting an outright race-realist to come crawling out of the woodworks. Your post was good for a nice laugh at least. I imagine you'd be pretty devastated by the epiphany of how unaware you're coming off if it ever occurred to you, so I'll offer a bit of help.

Despite your unfounded certainty that environmental factors are not solely culpable for racial behavioral differences, you couldn't muster the sense to bother citing actual evidence that genetics are the root cause. In order to prove that environmental (external) factors are not the underlying culprit, you would need to first provide evidence that genetic (internal) factors are to blame, which you've predictably failed to do. 

I laughed out loud when you brought up "personal responsibility", as if such qualities are not inherently part of behavior patterns that are being addressed by nature of the discussion itself. This hapless oversight of yours is what's being addressed in the series of questions: 
"What explains black behavior?", Simpleton: "personal responsibility",
"What explains the lack of personal responsibility?", Simpleton: "their culture",
"What explains the culture?". Simpleton: "uhh, collective behavior?",
and the cycle of ignorance continues.. Eventually you need to attribute these features to either genetics or environment. You're arguing as if personal responsibility accounts for a third determinant inherent to the same polarity that genetics and environment belong to (internal/external). Big 'ooof' moment.

Clearly this topic has you quite fervently invested, evident from your eagerness to ascribe such emotionally charged language towards the conclusions I've put forth, ("stop being a victim and a cry-baby", "this is how a lazy mind operates") despite these conclusions having been derived from comprehensive research and peer-reviewed studies. Given your emotional investment I know you'll surely commit to your own research to assure that your positions can't be easily discredited with academic citations. Surely you'll take the time to actually educate yourself before pretentiously spewing pompous nonsense towards people beyond your cognitive means, right? ..Right?? (haha who am I kidding?)

Sources:
Criminology (2003) study found that environmental and social differences accounted for the gap in crime rates among racial groups, not simply innate tendencies of any race.
https://www.academia.edu/19482806/EXPLAINING_RACIAL_AND_ETHNIC_DIFFERENCES_IN_SERIOUS_ADOLESCENT_VIOLENT_BEHAVIOR_

Developmental Psychology (1986) study observing mean IQ scores among black/interracial children raised by white parents relative to black parents, finding that the differences in socialization "were large enough to account for virtually entire Black-White IQ gap," undeniably giving merit to the environmental argument.
https://data.information.dk/upload/2019/viden/Moore.pdf

World Archaeology (2006) study debunking claims that evolutionary genetics account for intelligence gaps between prehistoric blacks and whites.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249007312_Africanist_archaeology_and_ancient_IQ_Racial_science_and_cultural_evolution_in_the_twenty-first_century

West Virginia University - The Research Repository (2010) study found implicit racial bias among courtroom judgements of ambiguous evidence and verifies jurors are significantly more likely perceive race-neutral evidence against dark-skinned suspects as incriminating, contributing to black incarceration, thus bolstering environmental disadvantages.
https://researchrepository.wvu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1315&context=wvlr

 

@StephenK I've read just about every word of these citations, and I'd love to see you try to negate even a snippet of it (predictably by citing The Bell Curve or other debunked pseudoscience, lol). Not quite sure what makes race realism appealing to people in this era, but you'll have to forgive me for suggesting it relates to the insecurities of inadequate men. I imagine a balding obese man, twice my age, in their 40's or 50's who clings onto the imagined prestige of his white skin and declares himself genetically superior on that basis alone.

[StephenK]

@dyslexicCnut You need to take a chill pill and learn to stop creating strawman arguments. Let go of your victim mentality. You'll get there eventually. And you'll be happier for it.

[Forestluv]

8 minutes ago, dyslexicCnut said:

"What explains black behavior?", Simpleton: "personal responsibility",
"What explains the lack of personal responsibility?", Simpleton: "their culture",
"What explains the culture?". Simpleton: "uhh, collective behavior?",
 

You are giving waaay too much credit to Simpleton's. It goes more like this:

"What explains black behavior?", Simpleton: "personal responsibility",
"What explains the lack of personal responsibility?", Simpleton: "their choices",
"What explains their choices?". Simpleton: "the choices they make"

[commie]

5 minutes ago, StephenK said:

@dyslexicCnut You need to take a chill pill and learn to stop creating strawman arguments. Let go of your victim mentality. You'll get there eventually. And you'll be happier for it.

I thought you were doing a parody. Another one for Poe's law!

Take this Large Talking Point Collider output for instance:

11 hours ago, StephenK said:

'it's all my fault because of genetics'(I am to blame)

[dyslexicCnut]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Obviously most racists do not self-identify as racist, nor do they need to in order to be considered racist. But white supremacy is a slightly different matter. If you truly believe the white race is superior and meant to rule over others, you'd be more open about it.

You're making blanket statements without reasonably proving anything. The idea that people would be open about white supremacist view points is absurd, considering the immense stigmatization you'd be subjecting yourself to by adopting this approach. A white supremacist has every bit as much a reason to be covert about this worldview as any broad range of "racists" would have. So no, white supremacist is in fact a label that can and should be inductively applied to refer to anyone who is advancing white supremacist politics.

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

While you bemoan the problem of white supremacists not being willing to call themselves out as such, you're overlooking the opposite problem: you projecting white supremacy on people whose worldviews you don't really care to understand or distinguish.

Again, this line of reasoning can also be applied to a broad range of "racists" who obviously don't care to be receptive to rationales that would implicate them as racist. You're not saying anything unique about white supremacists that separates them from the groups I listed earlier.

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

According to you, anyone you suspect of being a white supremacist IS a white supremacist -- because you say so. How convenient! How would anyone ever prove you wrong? Even if the person tells you, "But I'm not a white supremacist! I don't believe whites are better than blacks" you will say, "Of course, that's exactly what a white supremacist would say!"

Nice of you to project this faulty definition despite my explicitly stated definition. The popular argument is essentially that it is not possible to deductively prove somebody is racist, but since we all can make reasonable inductions based on their conduct/language, there is valuable utility in ascribing these terms to people who express racist values. Same applied to white supremacist values. 

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I watched the video in my first response. I still say it is unclear. Just cause the dude likes to suck white cock does not make him a white supremacist.

Dammit, I forgot to mention in my last post (since I predicted the fuck out of this response) that you had better not invoke some tenuous claim of ambiguity pertaining to this man's remarks. He directly says "I believe the white race is the superior one" and does not specify any motives pertaining to dating or sexual attraction for this conclusion, he merely says this perceived fact is why he dates them. Just because the context of the conversation is about dating does not mean the statement "I believe the white race is the superior one, so I date them because of this" requires further specification before you can conclude that he is racist.

[dyslexicCnut]

23 minutes ago, StephenK said:

@dyslexicCnut You need to take a chill pill and learn to stop creating strawman arguments. Let go of your victim mentality. You'll get there eventually. And you'll be happier for it.

Is "take a chill pill" just a thoughtless 'go-to' response that you just throw out automatically? There's no basis here since nobody is belligerent or even upset.

In order to be "strawmanning" you, I would need to be arguing against points you are not making. You sure do rely on exaggerated language to muster any sort of discernible thought, lol. Try to commit to using terms that you actually the meaning of. I've thoroughly debunked all of your claims, yet you've called me intellectually lazy while you yourself are not willing to even address the assertions I've put forth, let alone commit to your own research.

Please attempt to actually debunk the things I've said otherwise you can safely be dismissed as a hapless simpleton who's opinions can (and should) be discarded like a shit filled diaper. 

[dyslexicCnut]

@Meta-Man I'll think I'll be staying a solid 6 feet away from the likes of yourself, even post-covid. 

Simpletons: "Blacks are bad because genetics"
Academic: *lists scientific citations negating the claim*
Simpletons: "Whoaaa, take a chill pill man."

Lol, good shit.

1 hour ago, commie said:

I thought you were doing a parody. Another one for Poe's law!

Hahaha, it's actually hard to tell these days. It's as if Actualized.org hired a virtual court jester in the form of our good friend @StephenK over here.

1 hour ago, Forestluv said:

You are giving waaay too much credit to Simpleton's. It goes more like this:

"What explains black behavior?", Simpleton: "personal responsibility",
"What explains the lack of personal responsibility?", Simpleton: "their choices",
"What explains their choices?". Simpleton: "the choices they make"

They are beyond incorrigible.. and yes, your version is more accurate haha.
 

[StephenK]

1 hour ago, dyslexicCnut said:

In order to be "strawmanning" you, I would need to be arguing against points you are not making.

Bingo ✨

1 hour ago, dyslexicCnut said:

Is "take a chill pill" just a thoughtless 'go-to' response that you just throw out automatically? There's no basis here since nobody is belligerent or even upset.

[dyslexicCnut]

@StephenK And yet you still don't bother to explain what I'm strawmanning. Nice try mister race realist.

[Leo Gura]

@dyslexicCnut Look, bro, I'm open to having discussions about these issues. I'm not pushing some ideology here. Tone down your aggressiveness.

[StephenK]

@dyslexicCnut Ok, I’ll reassert my position for the sake of brevity, since you’re not picking up on the nuanced aspects of what is being said.

On 10/4/2020 at 6:47 AM, dyslexicCnut said:

"Why do you think negative attitudes and behaviors are prevalent in the black community?"

On 10/4/2020 at 6:47 AM, dyslexicCnut said:

"Is it possible that slavery and modern socio-economic factors are to blame?"

The implication of this second question is that slavery and socio-economic factors are the sole cause of the negative attitudes and behaviors in black communities. My answer to this question then is an emphatic no, because it is impossible for that to be true. There are aspects to negative attitudes and behaviors that are emergent from the human condition itself: whether you are black, white, yellow or gold. To ascribe all these negative attitudes and behaviors to two factors is dishonest and flat out wrong and reeks of the stretch of looking for a scapegoat. Two factors can not adequately explain the sum total of the negative attitudes and behaviors in the black community, nor any community for that matter. Slavery and socio-economics is not equivalent to the sum total of the environment, but a subset of the environment. And yes, genetics do play into the environment, as the genes responsible for black skin will influence the social encounters you have, and hence cause feedback loops in the environment. To ignore genetics is an act of supreme naivety. However you keep on fallaciously conflating socio-economics and slavery with the environment as a whole. Even though the sun is a driving component in weather, it does not ‘cause’ weather, nor is it ‘the weather’.

Note that you did not say, “"Is it possible that slavery and modern socio-economic factors are partially to blame for some of the dysfunctional aspects of the black community?"” To that question, I’d say yes, I agree. But you’re not into asking nuanced questions now are you -- hence my sympathy for your mother. So in a sense, your desire to assign all blame to socio-economics and slavery is to forfeit any personal responsibility for the suffering that emerges from the human condition. All that being said, I agree with your mother. Your line of questioning implies a lack of ownership over the human condition and your own life… a cop out if you will.

But the reason you can’t see this is because you’re obsessed with seeing reality through the lens of white-supremacists/nazis/race-realists (insert whatever buzzword you're fixated on) and assigning blame on other human beings for every bit of misery that may befall you, as is evident in your attitude. And it is this very attitude of seeing all your misery as coming from other humans that makes you and your ideology as dangerous as that that emerges from extreme political right. But I understand why you're upset: I'm revoking your victim card, which is bound to get you enraged. But so be it. The sooner you drop that thing, the better.   

[Forestluv]

A great example of a strong intellect contracted within Orange debate mode in this thread. 

[dyslexicCnut]

@StephenK Yet again you fail to muster any semblance of academic citation. I used to believe genetics played a role in the state of black America, it is the common sense, uninformed position after all. That was until I was exposed to the academic consensus and the peer reviewed citations, some of which I have provided you with, which you refuse to acknowledge because they contradict your narrative. 

I grew up extremely privileged, am at no risk of poverty, nor have I been at any point in my life, so there goes your "blame others for your problems" argument. I've never personally faced any issues due to my race, but in the mind of someone like yourself I suppose just being black is enough to warrant misery. 

I also find it amusing that you insist I did not pick up on the nuance of your argument when everything you've reiterated is precisely what I addressed, and previously understood your position to be.

StephenK: Okay, I'll explain how you're strawmanning me and the nuance you failed to pickup on.

The entire argument : *Everything that was already made clear in previous post with no new substantive rhetoric*

That deserves a trophy my dude. As if merely deriving a different conclusion from what you've espoused means I'm "strawmanning" you lol. Nice try, next time come with some academic citations to make a point.

10 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

A great example of a strong intellect contracted within Orange debate mode in this thread. 

This forum sure does love to ascribe these flimsy color model labels to anything but themselves. As if merely defending a position against a race-realist automatically puts me in an unflattering category of personal development.

[Mannyb]

The fuck is going on here? ? This ain’t even about them proud boys anymore! Whose leader is Latino and hence not a white supremacist.

[Forestluv]

16 minutes ago, dyslexicCnut said:

This forum sure does love to ascribe these flimsy color model labels to anything but themselves. As if merely defending a position against a race-realist automatically puts me in an unflattering category of personal development.

Spoken like an Orange Champion of intellectual prowess! Defend your castle!