on which stage on spiral dynamics is actualized.org

[kireet]

i think actualized.org used to be in orange and is now changing to turquoise. What are your thoughts?

[Sleyker]

I think it is definitely turquoise right now, but its success and popularity is thanks to the orange-like content Leo used to release in the past.

[Forestluv]

It depends on the forum. I’d say the self actualization and meditation forums are a mix of green, yellow and Turqoise. When orange enters, it sticks out. . . Yet I’d say the dating/sexuality and politics forums are a mix of high blue, orange and green - with a sprinkling of yellow. One needs go all the way down to red or low blue to stick out on those sub forums. 

[kireet]

@Serotoninluv agreed

 

[CultivateLove]

@Serotoninluv Well put

[supremeyingyang]

@Serotoninluv

Now as I think of it.. you are right. It's sad to me that the politics forum is realtively low.

[Consept]

15 minutes ago, supremeyingyang said:

@Serotoninluv

Now as I think of it.. you are right. It's sad to me that the politics forum is realtively low.

It is quite sad, I wonder as to the reason that happened 

[supremeyingyang]

@Consept

Just a possible Idea:
In Politics there is a trend to follow the lowest common denominator. So if you got a Population like that

0.5% Turqouise
2%    Yellow
10% Green
30% Orange
35% Blues
the rest is red, purple and beige

the Center of that Population would be Orange-Blue, but the lower Stage would set trends in Discussion because of Entitlement that has it's root in ignorance.

=> As a results of this will higher stages flee from politics politics or commit changes through more indirect ways - just because they are not the majority. It's also quite challenging to discuss with such a person as I can tell from experience. It can be a huge waste of time,c but if someone wants to learn higher stages will happily discuss with that one that is eager to learn. But they tend to not preach like orange-blue-red-purple. Consequently we got lesser stages in the politics Section.

Edited June 11, 2020 by supremeyingyang

[Consept]

@supremeyingyang

Yes I think that has a lot to do with it. At lower stages they tend to have already made up their mind and have a certain ideology that maybe makes up a part of their identity, this comes to the surface when anything that disagrees with their point of view. Almost as if you dispute their point it's like you're saying the sky is red. 

Higher stages or either happy to talk to others who either come up to their level or are generally at the same level or are happy to learn. If they're not happy to learn and are unknowingly blocked in a lower stage they can regress the conversation significantly as they know only enough to hold onto their beliefs and they see all other information as a threat to that belief and therefore go into attack mode. 

So you're right if it is lower stage dominant it would be impossible to make that shift into higher stage conversation. Without being insulting, in the same way it would be difficult to convince a 4 year old that santa isn't real 

[supremeyingyang]

@Consept

Exactly, it is difficult for me to maintain my multiperspective View in such a Disput. The Majority won't want to discusswith  you for truth, but just to win. As I think about it you could say that one gets corrupted in such a Discussion if one is not observant of that tendency.

I would add to that what you said about that 'higher stages are happy to learn and discuss' that stage Green can be very disfunctional. I've seen it, i lived it. If that is the case Greens may not as ignorant as lower stages but it's a waste of time as well... they'll discuss to win as well.

I don't know if 'discuss for truth' is a trait that is significantly higher in Yellow and above, but it could be the case. What do you think?

Edited June 11, 2020 by supremeyingyang

[Consept]

33 minutes ago, supremeyingyang said:

@Consept

Exactly, it is dificult for me to maintain my multiperspective View in such a Disput. The Majority won't want to discusswith  you for truth, but just to win. As I think about it you could say that one gets corrupted in such a Discussion if one is not observant of that tendency.

I would add to that what you said about that 'higher stages are happy to learn and discuss' that stage Green can be very disfunctional. I've seen it, i lived it. If that is the case Greens may not as ignorant as lower stages but it's a waste of time as well... they'll discuss to win as well.

I don't know if 'discuss for truth' is a trait that is significantly higher in Yellow and above, but it could be the case. What do you think?

'Discuss for truth' as you put it, is fundamentally a tier 2 value. Below that its really of case of 'this is my point of view, its right and im going to convince you of that', so every discussion within that tier will either be an argument or an agreement, with numerous people it will lead to siding with or that person. Because of being tied to a perspective, when presented with evidence this tier will look for ways to keep their narrative, which is why it sometimes even goes into conspiracies (qanon for example). 

A personal example is that during this BLM situation, ive been quite critical of the protests here in the UK, not really because of looting, its not much of an issue here anyway (im black btw), but mainly because i dont believe they know what theyre are protesting for, there are many issues to protest about but in my opinion police violence is a thing but its not the cause of black peoples issues in the UK currently, there are far more significant issues that if addressed could make real change but im not sure if people know about these or if they do, how to solve them, either way theyre not being discussed. So if i was to say this point of view to my brother who is quite green on this issue at least and who protested, he might think im against the movement or i dont understand it. Similarly, if i say to people who disagree and that are blue or orange, that black people even have issues in the UK i might be told, 'thats just a narrative' and 'stop being a victim'. So for both sides their world view and identity is more important than the truth or any attempt to get to a nuanced truth. 

Another issue is that people are used to sensationalising and exaggerating the opposition to their view, in which case you get a kind of race to the bottom, and live in this kind of made up world that fits around these world views. Because yellow doesnt really have a fixed point world view they can be very flexible but this can be seen as uncertainty or even a traitor if they change their mind, in the eyes of tier 1. Its a complexed issue in terms of communication  

Just to add this as an example, id say a yellow level thinker debating a tier 1 combination -

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Consept

[remember]

the politics sub forum is still that low because most people are actually still in orange and its even difficult to talk about politics on a high niveau in a forum, as people use to share opinions in forums and the discussion oftentimes gets graded down to the niveau of the most red, because red always stick out not only in the sexuality sub forum. and somehow if having integrated green its often leading to a game of triggering the lower stages to leave their comfort zone. which is annoying for yellow who likes outcomes. that’s why we like to think it’s turquoise.

Edited June 11, 2020 by remember

[Consept]

2 minutes ago, remember said:

the politics sub forum is still that low because most people are actually still in orange and its even difficult to talk about politics on a high niveau in a forum, as people use to share opinions in forums and the discussion oftentimes gets graded down to the niveau of the most red, because red always stick out not only in the sexuality sub forum. and somehow if having integrated green its often leading to a game of triggering the lower stages to leave their comfort zone. which is annoying for yellow who likes outcomes.

Interesting question though is, if lets say your blue or even orange, Actualized.org seems to be the antithesis of your identity, what do you think attracts people to this site? Of course im not saying they shouldnt be here but for example i would be a bit confused by this site if i was still at solid orange 

[remember]

1 minute ago, Consept said:

Interesting question though is, if lets say your blue or even orange, Actualized.org seems to be the antithesis of your identity, what do you think attracts people to this site? Of course im not saying they shouldnt be here but for example i would be a bit confused by this site if i was still at solid orange 

leo is a good hooker 

i mean he has his hooks out in the water, ego just needs to swim by. of course there are people who are relatively orange or even red - people with personality disorders and all kind of problems. a huge part of people here are not orange, but rather green. its interesting that green seems to struggle with red so much, maybe because they are complimentary colours and some people are colour blind.

[Loving Radiance]

54 minutes ago, Consept said:

'Discuss for truth' as you put it, is fundamentally a tier 2 value.

Interesting insight.

When I feel personally attacked in my identity I perceive the tendency to "win" through argumentation, despite knowing the egoic tendecy to solidify when faced with opposing arguments.

The thought "I could be wrong" is threatening to me although my daily experience is changing perspectives on the fly especially when journaling. But I also feel to care about what is true... maybe I want my "truth".

Edited June 11, 2020 by Loving Radiance
typo

[remember]

5 minutes ago, Loving Radiance said:

maybe I want my "truth".

ofc. that’s what every one wants. in the end its all a struggle for truth survival.

[Consept]

2 minutes ago, Loving Radiance said:

Interesting insight.

When I feel personally attached in my identity I perceive the tendency to "win" through argumentation, despite knowing the egoic tendecy to solidify when faced with opposing arguments.

The thought "I could be wrong" is threatening to me although my daily experience is changing perspectives on the fly especially when journaling. But I also feel to care about what is true... maybe I want my "truth".

Exactly, that is the distinction 'my truth' vs 'truth' (at least relative truth) 

When i believed narratives in the past i would feel very threatened if an opposing view came up that actually made sense on some level. If it just a stupid argument thats just opposing for the sake of it you feel a sense of glee, because youre like, 'im gonna get em'. Now i like intelligent debates because it actually refines my view and if i am right look at why i'm right and if i am wrong i can adapt the original view in light of the new evidence or perspective, so its a win-win. But this is only possible if i dont have a 'my truth' to start with  

[remember]

32 minutes ago, Consept said:

Exactly, that is the distinction 'my truth' vs 'truth' (at least relative truth) 

When i believed narratives in the past i would feel very threatened if an opposing view came up that actually made sense on some level. If it just a stupid argument thats just opposing for the sake of it you feel a sense of glee, because youre like, 'im gonna get em'. Now i like intelligent debates because it actually refines my view and if i am right look at why i'm right and if i am wrong i can adapt the original view in light of the new evidence or perspective, so its a win-win. But this is only possible if i dont have a 'my truth' to start with  

integration adds and takes away and adapts and morphes until we get a more accurate picture of the situation, of us and of others. we have to actually look to integrate the whole truth and only there the separation happens. self is integrated in a flow state without separation although that’s also where the separation into my truth or your truth or our truth or general truth happens. if you are open you have to somehow shut the doors from threat much more than if you constantly fight for survival. no one reaches true flow states if the doors are shut from the start. but that’s also how wooden horses enter. or encapsulated egos.

Edited June 11, 2020 by remember

[supremeyingyang]

@remember @Consept

I keep asking me that Question: Is it better to expose people to truths than to let them envolve it naturally? It feels like I have the Answers to Questions that aren't even ask at this point by several people in my life. And people don't like to get these truths. But I received 'Breakpoints' from people who showed me how wrong my point was and I digested it (for example about Vegetarianism and how our Food is bad). But this may not the most effective way.

I know there is no one for all Solution but I think it's crucial to think about this. As we go on in life we will progress far beyond, so we will be in a prot-leader position because not many see this far. This is how I see it unironically and this isn't coming from Arrogance. One should not think of themself as superior by default but if you more advanced... isn't it harmful to conceal it?

[Loving Radiance]

56 minutes ago, Consept said:

When i believed narratives in the past i would feel very threatened if an opposing view came up that actually made sense on some level. If it just a stupid argument thats just opposing for the sake of it you feel a sense of glee, because youre like, 'im gonna get em'.

I feel more frustrated than threatened, and understanding where they come from. I feel the urge to broaden their perspective... like spending hours to research statistics, cognitive biases and thinking about dynamics of identity & ego defence to present a whole picture of their argument and why it is misleading & deceiving.

Like shining light on their contractedness. Usually I feel that even that would be me trying to prove them wrong.

57 minutes ago, Consept said:

if i am right look at why i'm right and if i am wrong i can adapt the original view in light of the new evidence or perspective, so its a win-win

This a no brainer for me. I feel better when having a broader view. However, there is frustration... dunno.

17 minutes ago, supremeyingyang said:

think of themself as superior by default but if you more advanced

It is difficult for me to differentitate between the two... maybe more personal exp will enlighten me.