on which stage on spiral dynamics is actualized.org

[remember]

@supremeyingyang wealth is there because of a special kind of consciousness. there was a lot of wealth in some eastern cities, too. you can’t really separate consciousness and wealth in that case, but you sometimes can in case of super rich, who you most likely find also in the middle or in the north - it’s a problem if people use their money without taste, that’s what i meant when i said some artists leave behind shit for others to clean up. in case of the south of germany you have much more middle class structures which have grown over time.

[Parththakkar12]

I'm seeing people having an issue with the politics sub-forum including lower stages. I don't think this is a problem. In fact, I deliberately take on lower-consciousness perspectives here so that I can have debates from those perspectives and understand them better. The goal here is not to create a high-enlightened perspective that's the most perfect, spiritual and conscious that can look down on all the other morons trying to figure out what you've succeeded in figuring out. The goal here is to own your role as a part of the collective.

We don't control our level of consciousness. Yeah sure you can have practices that can influence it, but you can't control it. What this means is that the people out there who are so-called lower-conscious have completely different lives and are struggling with completely different problems than yourself. It is an evolutionary advantage to be more conscious than them as a person. This shows that you are stronger than them, more adaptable than them. You have your niche in the ecosystem accordingly, they have their niche accordingly.

If you're at Stage Yellow, what you'll care the most about is integration of perspectives. This involves taking on other people's perspectives, understanding their situation, their psychology, how they see you, etc. You will have a genuine desire to bridge the gaps between the different mental structures by creating lines of communication. Always remember that You are the creator of this world. Which means that you are responsible for the unconsciousness AND closed-mindedness of people around you. Now this doesn't mean that you are to blame for it, or that they aren't responsible, it just means that you are. If you're stuck with unconscious, closed-minded people/society, you can change that situation by learning to communicate with them, becoming more conscious of their perspective. There will always be a way.

This world was not deliberately created by conscious people, it unconsciously evolved according to the actions of unconscious people. Therefore it is by unconscious people for unconscious people. Today, as we see more people entering Tier-2, we're entering a new era where for the first time, we can choose the kind of society we want to create. This will require SD Stage Green, Yellow and Turquoise people to empower themselves in the context of their relationship with society. The more this happens, the more we will see a healthy society emerge and replace this archaic society we have.

[supremeyingyang]

@Parththakkar12

I interpret your View, simplified, that you assume that it is not true Yellow to have a closed Group, because Yellow Ones need to get exposed to every View and they enjoy this endlessly. While there is Validity to Argument it's not absolutely true. It'll gt annoying. There is a Point there this wouldn't meet the Criteria of a Yellow Discussion (i claim).
Also: One could also argue that the whole Life is a series of Interactions with the whole Spiral, at least a Yellow one would likely find Value through those Interactions and so be prone to seek them. The Discussion with like minded Individuals is not from that kind, it's something special like Scientist when they meet and discuss the State of the Art.

Tell me if this is a ridiculous Analogy: If you go to a very good Restaurant you will find a Master Chef and his Supreme Personal, even though some of them are just beginning to learn. It's not about Exclusion because everyone else is inferior. They don't let any body in because they can't hold the Quality with untrained People. But you can put like 2-3 untrained Individuals in a Group of in sum 10 Individuals, so they can learn and enrich the Group. In this case through hard work, in a Discussion through a fresh Perspective.

If we transfer this logic why shouldn't the Majority in a Group be in Yellow?

Edited June 15, 2020 by supremeyingyang

[Parththakkar12]

4 hours ago, supremeyingyang said:

I interpret your View, simplified, that you assume that it is not true Yellow to have a closed Group, because Yellow Ones need to get exposed to every View and they enjoy this endlessly. While there is Validity to Argument it's not absolutely true. It'll gt annoying.

You can have a closed group if you want. I'm not judging your desire for a closed group. Would they enjoy this endlessly? I'm not fully sure about that, depends on the individual and their life motivations.

4 hours ago, supremeyingyang said:

Also: One could also argue that the whole Life is a series of Interactions with the whole Spiral, at least a Yellow one would likely find Value through those Interactions and so be prone to seek them. The Discussion with like minded Individuals is not from that kind, it's something special like Scientist when they meet and discuss the State of the Art.

For sure. You can have higher-level discussions on long-term solutions to problems, higher-level analyses of problems in an exclusively Yellow space if you want. Yellow can get lonely and may want to have like-minded people to talk to.

4 hours ago, supremeyingyang said:

Tell me if this is a ridiculous Analogy: If you go to a very good Restaurant you will find a Master Chef and his Supreme Personal, even though some of them are just beginning to learn. It's not about Exclusion because everyone else is inferior. They don't let any body in because they can't hold the Quality with untrained People. But you can put like 2-3 untrained Individuals in a Group of in sum 10 Individuals, so they can learn and enrich the Group. In this case through hard work, in a Discussion through a fresh Perspective.

Except for one thing - Spiral dynamics is not a skill-set. It's a hierarchy of value-systems. Your personal values will evolve as you move up the spiral. But I get what you're saying.

You can do the whole Stage Yellow thing. I personally like the forum as it is right now, because:

• It gives me the ability to understand ideological perspectives from lower stages. All your solutions ultimately will be for people on lower stages. This will be your gift to them.
• It is very important to understand the psychology of the lower stages. It reflects the problems of or society more accurately. This stuff is so complex that you will require any and all learning about the problems at hand.
• Working with emotional triggers are an important key to personal growth, you can get triggered easily on the subforum the way it is now.
• As someone at Tier-2, most of my work is about taking on Tier-1 perspectives and mastering the spiral. There is a lot of depth in Tier-1 perspectives, they aren't as simplistic as they seem. There is no shame in spending time moving up Tier-1 in other aspects of your life, even if you're at Tier-2 in some areas.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Forestluv]

11 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

The goal here is not to create a high-enlightened perspective that's the most perfect, spiritual and conscious that can look down on all the other morons trying to figure out what you've succeeded in figuring out. The goal here is to own your role as a part of the collective.

Be mindful of context and creating a straw man. No yellow level thinkers here are advocating that we should create a “perfect, spiritual and consciousness that can look down on all the other morons trying to figure out what you’ve succeeded in figuring out”. 

Yes, each person is at their own stage of development, appropriate for their self. And yes, each perspective has value and we can all learn from each other. In addition to that dynamic, there is also the dynamic of evolving. The politics subforum mission statement states the target is to evolve up to a Tier2 level of discussion. Within that framework, engaging in Red-level food fights isn’t going to cut it - no more than students arguing about algebra is B.S. in a calculus class. In accordance with the subforum mission is to be open-minded and learn. It’s not a 4-chan, anything goes forum. 

[supremeyingyang]

8 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Within that framework, engaging in Red-level food fights isn’t going to cut it - no more than students arguing about algebra is B.S. in a calculus class. In accordance with the subforum mission is to be open-minded and learn. It’s not a 4-chan, anything goes forum. 

Great Example for a trial to build such a social system for a higher pupose without the majority in Yellow.

BTW: I, even with myself, think like that: What if we trick ourself to be higher on SD than we are? Our whatever dude on the forum, we don't know each other really. It's really cool to brag about Tier 2 and that Tier 1 won't get 'it'. I find it rather unlikely that Yellow and Turqoise is Legion, I mean it could be true. But who knows?

Unless I see Indicators I discount the talk.

Yellow -> Orange

Turquoise -> Green.

[Parththakkar12]

On 6/16/2020 at 2:10 AM, Serotoninluv said:

Be mindful of context and creating a straw man. No yellow level thinkers here are advocating that we should create a “perfect, spiritual and consciousness that can look down on all the other morons trying to figure out what you’ve succeeded in figuring out”. 

Lol I deliberately used exaggerated verbiage. I do sometimes get the impression that everyone wants to reach a higher stage to be able to look down on the lower stages! I'm not fully sure about Yellow, but I've seen Green do this on the forum for sure. Maybe you could say it's a part of being Green.

On 6/16/2020 at 2:10 AM, Serotoninluv said:

Within that framework, engaging in Red-level food fights isn’t going to cut it - no more than students arguing about algebra is B.S. in a calculus class. In accordance with the subforum mission is to be open-minded and learn. It’s not a 4-chan, anything goes forum. 

This is a different issue. Leo and you mods are doing a good job moderating the ideological flame-wars and stopping troublemakers. What I'm also saying is that it is appropriate for that subforum to have authentic, open-minded Tier-1 discussions where everyone is growing. We don't have to exclude Tier-1 perspectives to have it be constructive.

Having said that, feel free to create an exclusively Stage Yellow space! No positions for or against it.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Forestluv]

16 hours ago, supremeyingyang said:

It's really cool to brag about Tier 2 and that Tier 1 won't get 'it'. I find it rather unlikely that Yellow and Turqoise is Legion, I mean it could be true. But who knows?

This reminds me of an old saying “Fake It Until You Make It”

25 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

This is a different issue. Leo and you mods are doing a good job moderating the ideological flame-wars and stopping troublemakers. What I'm also saying is that it is appropriate for that subforum to have authentic, open-minded Tier-1 discussions where everyone is growing. We don't have to exclude Tier-1 perspectives to have it be constructive.

Having said that, feel free to create an exclusively Stage Yellow space! No positions for or against it.

Of course. That is the whole point. The target of evolution is Tier2. The key is to learn and grow.

Imagine this is a forum to learn Spanish. The point is to learn Spanish to fluency. It would be silly to create a forum exclusively for fluent Spanish speakers. That defeats the whole purpose!

And it’s fine to stumble around as we converse in Spanish class. This is actually an important component. When I was learning Spanish in Honduras, my goal was to make 100 errors per day. I only spoke and wrote Spanish, so this meant making about 10-15 errors every hour. The other students thought I was crazy, yet those that were actual fluent in Spanish knew this was a great idea. If I make 100 errors a day, it means I’m putting myself out there. I’m open and willing to learn and I’m putting myself out there. And my learning took off. 

In terms of evolution, the problem isn’t where someone is at. I was a beginner when I went to Honduras. Rather, the problem is the orientation. If I went in with the attitude of “English is better than Spanish, but I have to learn this stupid language for my job”, it becomes toxic to the community. If I have an agenda to spread anti-Spanish ideology and argue and debate about how stupid Spanish is, it becomes toxic to the community. 

In this analogy, students at an intermediate level mocking beginner level students also creates a toxic atmosphere because it puts different stages of development in conflict with each other. 

[supremeyingyang]

@Serotoninluv

It's more like bragging to others English Speaker how good ones Spanish is, but in Reality it is Intermediate. Feels good, so fuck learning.

 

[Thewritersunion]

I see no coral here or turquoise that often. ?