can we explain psychedelics under the materialist paradigm ?

[Someone here]

we actually can observe the  correlation between what the person  sees under the effect of psychedelics and changes in the responsible parts of the brain (for generating perceptions). it's not completely understood yet but i think we will be able to have a material explanation in the near future as studies on the brain advances further. 

what do you guys think? 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Someone here

[SamueLSD]

@Someone here Possibly. I don't really see how it could be of any use, however. 

[Someone here]

9 minutes ago, SamueLSD said:

@Someone here Possibly. I don't really see how it could be of any use, however. 

Most people when they take psychedelics they first don't understand what the hell just happened and it's understandable but because they missed the fact that the brain is in fact capable of hallucinating stuff and you can actually measure the brain activity that's responsible for this. So I would say it's easily explained  mechanically.  That doesn't contradict that they might reveal mystical insights. But what does it mean to our understanding when we know it was caused by a change in the brain state? 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Someone here

[SamueLSD]

@Someone here  Measuring brain inactivity*.  Some regions of the brain are completely 'switched off' while on psychedelics.  ( Ego drop ) 

This is what confuses people more than the cool hallucinations themselves. 

It is easy to explain the psychedelics themselves, as chemicals affecting the brain. But not so much the 'experience' it entails. 

[SamueLSD]

@Someone here The mind dies, but perception / consciousness remains. Materialist science is not of assistance in this case. 

That being said, I do have an interest in science and I love that people are researching and studying them in different ways.

Edited June 3, 2020 by SamueLSD

[Osaid]

11 minutes ago, Someone here said:

But what does it mean to our understanding when we know it was caused by a change in the brain state? 

It has no metaphysical implications, but it might make it easier to understand how such experiences work within the scientific domain though. Maybe there will be technology to induce certain psychedelic experiences at will, who knows.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Osaid

[Someone here]

5 minutes ago, SamueLSD said:

@Someone here The mind dies, but perception / consciousness remains. Materialist science is not of assistance in this case. 

That being said, I do have an interest in science and I love that people are researching and studying them in different ways.

I think you mean the ego or the sense of separation but not the raw perception. That doesn't die on a psychedelic trip. 

[SamueLSD]

@Someone here ( i did say perception / consciousness remains ) 

[Jacobsrw]

50 minutes ago, Someone here said:

we actually can observe the  correlation between what the person  sees under the effect of psychedelics and changes in the responsible parts of the brain (for generating perceptions). it's not completely understood yet but i think we will be able to have a material explanation in the near future as studies on the brain advances further. 

what do you guys think? 

In my view, short answer, no. I watched this video sometime back and David completely distorted his psychedelic experience through approximating materialistic notions. He admittedly struggled to materially conceptualise what he experienced, yet continued to use a materialist paradigm in order to try explain it.

Materialsm will forever be baffled by the psychedelic experience because it undermines its entire paradigm. Trying to explain psychedelics via materialism is like trying to explain an ants perspective using a humans. Not going to possible. It will be forever limited to biases and tautological inferences.

Psychedelics extend far beyond the ontological, metaphysical and cosmological explanations of materialism.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Jacobsrw

[SamueLSD]

@Jacobsrw

[Someone here]

@Jacobsrw he was running an experiment on psychedelics. It was his first time so it's understandable.   It was the intention from the experiment from the very beginning to track what's happening in his brain during and after the trip. He's so scientifically minded so you can't blame him for that. You can't force people to just use your own method of studying and exclude any other method. If we as humans just accept every thing as it is in the world science wouldn't advance and will probably stay like apes in the jungle.  

But straight to the point.. What's your current understanding of how psychedelics work? and how do you explain the very clear correlation between the trip and the brain activity? 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Someone here

[cetus]

 Can we explain psychedelics under the materialist paradigm?

I doubt it.

 

 

[Someone here]

5 minutes ago, cetus said:

 Can we explain psychedelics under the materialist paradigm?

I doubt it.

 

 

@Jacobsrw@cetus  I doubt it too but I "believe" in the future you can actually go and visit a therapist and he will do something in your brain without injecting psychedelics that allows you to see that thing up there lol.   It's safe to conclude that since we already can track the parts of the brain and the exact changes that happen during the trips

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I doubt it too but I "believe" in the future you can actually go and visit a therapist and he will do something in your brain without injecting psychedelics

“Injecting”? C’mon, it’s not heroin for goodness sake. ?

And yes, neuroscientists and health care provides will want to manipulate brain activity to induce psychedelic-like mind states. There will be all sorts of varieties in the future. Both medical and recreational forms.

It doesn’t matter if it’s induced neurologically through a chemical substance, ultrasonic waves, magnetics, meditation, whatever.

You are creating a categorical duality of “material” and “immaterial”. Yet within that duality construct, it’s a fun question to explore.

[Jacobsrw]

37 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Jacobsrw he was running an experiment on psychedelics. It was his first time so it's understandable.   It was the intention from the experiment from the very beginning to track what's happening in his brain during and after the trip. He's so scientifically minded so you can't blame him for that. You can't force people to just use your own method of studying and exclude any other method. If we as humans just accept every thing as it is in the world science wouldn't advance and will probably stay like apes in the jungle.  

Agreed. He is definitely premature in his psychedelic endeavours. However, wouldn’t one seek to discover what areas of interpretations may be required to best understand such an esoteric experience? Wouldn’t that be the scientific approach to take? He assumes his scientific lens could deduce such an experience yet struggled to wonder why it didn’t. Would not this suggest a needed leap beyond science?

My views are irrelevant. Anyone who has experienced psychedelics can vouch for the futility in trying to explain them via a materialistically scientific lens. Science can merely explain metaphysics let alone a psychedelic experience. This is not about views and opinions, but limitations of paradigms, as stated by Thomas Kuhn. 

37 minutes ago, Someone here said:

But straight to the point.. What's your current understanding of how psychedelics work? and how do you explain the very clear correlation between the trip and the brain activity? 

Well according to neuroscience the psychedelic molecule binds to the receptors in the brain which then magnifies the proliferation of brain connectivity. However, this is completely rendered irrelevant on the level of consciousness. Neuroscience assumes more connectivity equates these altered state of consciousness. Yet by that very same logic, one could assume any drug that increases brain connectivity to be of the same equivalence - Ritalin, heroine, modafinil, adderal etc. All of which, produce completely different experiences than psychedelics. This is a clear scientific limitation.

The findings of a materialistic science are meaningless because they by no means explain the fundamental realisations that occur when in a psychedelic experience. It is completely void in this regard. Materialism assumes a brain and that’s the problem. Any changes in consciousness become superimposed as caused by the brain. From that position, psychedelics will never be understood by materialism.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Jacobsrw

[Someone here]

25 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

“Injecting”? C’mon, it’s not heroin for goodness sake. ?

And yes, neuroscientists and health care provides will want to manipulate brain activity to induce psychedelic-like mind states. There will be all sorts of varieties in the future. Both medical and recreational forms.

It doesn’t matter if it’s induced neurologically through a chemical substance, ultrasonic waves, magnetics, meditation, whatever.

You are creating a categorical duality of “material” and “immaterial”. Yet within that duality construct, it’s a fun question to explore.

I'm not creating a duality here. It doesn't matter the label.  The point of it's understood how the mechanism work then that's that.  We don't need to jump to mystical conclusions it's sort of like ancient people believed that dreams are activity from spirits but now we know that the brain is responsible for dreams and not ghosts. 

[Someone here]

@Jacobsrw @Jacobsrw

Ofcourse different chemicals have different effect on the brain that's so obvious. 

[inFlow]

30:18 ego-backlash

[Osaid]

@inFlow damn true

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

I'm not creating a duality here. It doesn't matter the label.  The point of it's understood how the mechanism work then that's that.  We don't need to jump to mystical conclusions it's sort of like ancient people believed that dreams are activity from spirits but now we know that the brain is responsible for dreams and not ghosts. 

This is a story you are creating. Albeit a fun story.